About NCFA Canada | Craig Asano | June 19, 2026

EP65: Personal Guarantees: The Most Expensive Autograph an Entrepreneur Can Sign

Featured Guest: 

CRAIG ARNATT, Founder and CEO, PGI Cover (LinkedIn)

Links

• Website: PGI Cover | PGI Cover on LinkedIn
• About Craig Arnatt | Craig Arnatt on LinkedIn
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About this episode

Duration:  108 mins

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Fintech Friday Transcript of Episode 65:

CRAIG ARNATT, Founder and CEO, PGI Cover (LinkedIn)

Intro: Welcome to fintech Friday's a weekly podcast brought to you by the National Crowdfunding and Fintech Association of Canada and partners. Covering all things fintech, blockchain, AI and alternative finance.

 

I'm Craig Asano, founder and CEO of NCFA Canada, and welcome you to Season 4, Episode 65 of Fintech Fridays, a weekly podcast brought to you by NCFA and partners, where we feature conversations with leading voices across Fintech, funding and financial innovation. In Canada as well as around the globe. We talk about the founders'journeys, new ventures, emerging trends, and really what they're seeing in the market right now. Today we have another fantastic guest with us. I'd like to introduce to you Craig Arnatt.

He's the founder and CEO of PGI Cover. A Vancouver-based specialty insurance brokerage building a new category of protection for entrepreneurs, business owners, and acquisition buyers who sign personal guarantees on business financing. Craig brings more than 20 years of experience as a commercial broker, insurance entrepreneur, and an insurtech builder. He's launched EventPolicy in 2012, and that definitely rings a bell today. To someone in my shoes, I remember that, which is a fully automated commercial liability platform.

Later, he founded InsureCert, an insurtech SaaS company, and has led a government support research into AI and large language models in insurance. So Craig, we'd like to welcome you to the show. Thanks so much for joining us today.

 

[00:01:43] Craig Arnatt: Yeah, thanks very much for having me, Craig. Glad to be here. Yeah, so we've got a lot of questions, and it's a very super interesting topic. But we're going to just ease our way into here with the kickoff question.

 

[00:02:14] Craig Asano: So first of all, I'd like to call out that you've got a pretty cool name. Yeah. And it's rare we get a couple of Craigs on the show, so it's worth saying. But the first question is really, you know, most entrepreneurs think about business risk because they live and breathe it, but many maybe don't realize that They could be putting their personal savings or investments and even maybe their home on the line when they borrow money. So for listeners hearing about PGI Cover for the first time, what is Personal Guarantee Insurance?

 

[00:02:51] Craig Asano: And, you know, why has this risk kind of largely going under the radar? It might be invisible to founders and business buyers for so long, of which we're hopefully unveiling today. So, you know, what is it?

 

[00:02:51] Craig Arnatt: Yeah, so Personal Guarantee Insurance sounds boring right up until you realize that the cover is quietly covering the scariest clause in an entire loan agreement. So here's a setup. You walk into a bank as a business owner to get a loan. They smile and they say they believe you and believe in the vision.

 

[00:03:25] Craig Arnatt: But then somewhere around page 38, they ask you for a personal guarantee. And that is one signature that changes everything. It means that the business, if they cannot pay the loan, they do not just take the business, but they come after you personally. So that really means the house, the savings, the kids'education fund, the lake place you've been calling an investment. So a personal guarantee can be the most expensive autograph you'll ever give. Most founders signed it as the same way they accepted terms and conditions on a new phone or software.

 

[00:03:55] Craig Arnatt: You click accept without really reading a single word of it. So the whole reason PGI Cover exists is that we ensure the personal guarantee clause of that loan agreement. So if the business fails and the bank calls in the guarantee, our policy steps in and covers a large part of what you would otherwise be paying out of your own pocket. So, you know, the banks always ensure their downside. We've decided that the founder deserves the same safety net. So the second part of your question is, why did it stay invisible?

 

[00:04:28] Craig Arnatt: I think until recently, there was simply nothing you could do about it. It's one of those items that has no risk alternative. So it has always been just the way it is. A line item that, you know, the lawyers simply say you have to sign. So the business owners must agree to that or the loan doesn't happen. Yeah, we see it all the time in emails, the number of inbounds we get in the box that say, hey, you know, you're an entrepreneur. We've got all kinds of money. And after various exchanges back and forth, of course, there it is.

 

[00:05:01] Craig Asano: It's a personal guarantee. So hopefully as we dig in the conversation, we're going to, it's like an onion. I like it, you know, sort of unravel the various layers and get to the real core of the Of not just the protection, but the risks and what could happen in other cases. But before we get there, because a lot of this podcast is about founder journeys, we want to talk a little bit about your background on the show. When did you launch PGI Cover? Really, what led you to focus on this aspect of insurance, like personal guarantees?

 

[00:05:36] Craig Arnatt: Yeah, so I think many of us in the insurance industry fall into it one way or another. And I had a chance to buy a brokerage almost 20 years ago now. And I thoroughly enjoyed the challenge, learning contract law and the process. And prior to that, I had a technology background. So I participated in a number of technology endeavors once I got into the industry, working with carriers, brokers and MGAs. And the struggle has always been how do you modernize the insurance industry?

 

[00:06:07] Craig Arnatt: So recently, of course, AI has done amazing things. But over the years, we've pursued other initiatives trying to streamline a very archaic industry. So it is a challenge that I have enjoyed very much. So fast forward to a few years ago when a friend called and asked if I could get him a Personal Guarantee Insurance policy. I had no clue what that was for someone who's somewhat of a veteran. So that really began my research into the product.

 

[00:06:39] Craig Arnatt: The original thesis was created by Todd Davidson in the UK. He started a MGA called Purbeck and together we've been working together to launch this product here in Canada with the help of Markel Canada as capacity provider. So we are very excited about bringing this very new product to Canadian SMEs. So that's how I fell into the product and we were just launching this month in June, 2026. Wow, well, fresh, fresh information.

 

[00:07:11] Craig Asano: And I think it's an amazing problem to tackle. And this sort of a good segue into the next question, because, you know, most founders always are looking for a problem to build a product, but you're taking on an entirely different challenge, because it doesn't exist here in Canada, as I understand. And You're the first to to tackle it so that's a brand new you know category so can you just talk a little bit about that challenge and maybe what the it's it is very early so you don't have a lot of certainly months or years or even

 

[00:07:45] Craig Asano: months behind your belt to talk about it but what what is the reception been what what are your thoughts like how how is that going

 

[00:07:45] Craig Arnatt: Yeah, so the product's been running in the UK for, I think, almost eight years now. So they've had a very good success at it. There's also a version of this product in Australia. Jeff McNally runs that, PGI Australia. So, you know, building a better product is hard. Building a market for a product nobody knew they needed is a different venture entirely.

 

[00:08:16] Craig Arnatt: Most founders get to say, you know, here's a better mousetrap. I have the first convinced Canadian SME owners that you have a mouse problem. So that is a new category tax. You are not competing for attention, really. You're creating for the awareness of the product in the first place. So the upside is there's no competition in the lane, but the downside is there is no lane. So we're really paving it while we drive on it, so to speak. So that's the challenge. But the good news is that overall in the other countries that it is running,

 

[00:08:48] Craig Arnatt: it's been very warmly successful or warmly greeted and quite successful on the insurance side.

 

[00:08:48] Craig Asano: So you mentioned, which kind of doesn't surprise me, that it's been eight years in the UK. We don't have it in Canada. It's been X number of years in Australia. We don't have it in Canada. They've had these positive experiences and I can only imagine that it's doing what that type of insurance is meant to do as a product.

 

[00:09:19] Craig Asano: And so when connecting with those names that you mentioned who are running those businesses in those countries, Did they indicate that it was such a significant challenge to start a new category there in their countries? And when you listen to that and you know how Canada can be a little conservative with something new, did you... I mean, you, you, you're taking this challenge on, you're going to market. It's brand new. We're, we're helping, you know, get this message out and, you know, encourage many as, as founders, as well as potential partners to, to connect

 

[00:09:56] Craig Asano: with you if they are interested to, to learn more. But, what, what did those partners in those countries say about the challenges? I'd be very interested because like any new category, It's tough. It's always an uphill battle. And then something, some traction sort of moves or an obstacle or hurdle is overcome. And I wonder what those triggers are in this case. Yeah, it's an interesting question. And I've always kind of struggled for why this product doesn't exist.

 

[00:10:27] Craig Arnatt: I know that in the US They had a version back in 08 by a company that gave it a go. And there was some dynamics internally that happened that just didn't really work out. There was some issues with the internalization of that product. So other than the obvious that no one carries a product, the pleasant side of that product when you're talking about it is the realization from the business owner's perspective That it's a very important solution to their problem.

 

[00:11:04] Craig Arnatt: On the flip side, on the insurance side, it's a very difficult thing to challenge the insurance industry to come up with a new category of insurance. When you're talking to an actuarial, they're like, they don't fully understand it. It doesn't exist. There's a huge mountain to climb to convince the insurance capacity providers that it's worthwhile. But I think once they understand the real benefit, the value of it, then they then they do warm up to it. I think more than anything for me as a as a as a founder myself,

 

[00:11:38] Craig Arnatt: I've signed a personal guarantee and I kind of like, oh, man, You realize that your house is up on the line, you know, so it identifies, I identified with the product right away. So, you know, some of the more surprising things about the product itself is that you're talking to a sophisticated person in the room, which would be the lawyer or the lender or a serial founder. They're the ones that most likely have something to say about it. And they had no idea that they could insure it. So when they do find out that they can, then they get quite excited about it.

 

[00:12:13] Craig Arnatt: The blind spot scales with experience because everybody assumes somebody already solved it. But it is quite interesting to have discussions with people who are quite knowledgeable about the aspect of that clause in loan agreements. And when you tell them that it's actually available now, they do quite get excited about it. So I guess really the lesson for the founders, if a lawyer or lender is telling you that there's nothing they can do about a personal guarantee exposure, then they need to tell them about PGI Cover.

 

[00:12:45] Craig Arnatt: It's here today as of June and 2026.

 

[00:12:45] Craig Asano: Okay, well, fantastic. So let's get more into just understanding about personal guarantees. You know, why did lenders do lenders require one and how common are they in? In Canada, as you're saying, in small business lending, it's not here yet. But how common are they in the UK then as a result? Do you have any data on, you know, what sort of volume or what sort of percentage of these small business financings, you know,

 

[00:13:18] Craig Asano: these loans that are accompanied with personal guarantees? So sort of, you know, what is it that the lenders really required or not? Not really. And, you know, what what sort of data can you tell us about it?

 

[00:13:18] Craig Arnatt: Well, in our research, it's required almost every time. I mean, there are some loan programs that are out there. In the US, they have the SBA loan program. In Canada, they've got the small business lending program. And those programs are really designed to encourage lending.

 

[00:13:50] Craig Arnatt: But the personal exposure is still there. At the end of the day, people think, oh, I've got a government backed loan. Well, those programs, again, are just designed really to encourage lending. Interestingly enough, the UK government published a thing late last year, an article specifically mentioning personal guarantee and how they impact a business owner. So the government in the UK has actually made an effort to draw attention to that clause. And coincidentally, they've got Purbeck that can rely on to solve that problem.

 

[00:14:26] Craig Arnatt: And Jeff was telling me in Australia that the Australian government is doing a very similar approach, is that they're now making business owners really identify with that clause and to understand what it means. And I think more than anything, it's because lending is up for businesses in many places in the world. And the government's job is, of course, trying to protect business owners from impacts. So the personal guarantee really personally promising to repay a business debt if the business cannot.

 

[00:15:03] Craig Arnatt: It quietly erases the line between you and the company. Personal guarantees, the whole point of incorporating really at the essence, if you think about business structure, you incorporate to protect you personally from liability that your business can expose you to. So as an insurance person, you're thinking, what are all the products that can protect that person who's calling me on the phone? So up until recently, there's nothing really that you can offer them as far as that personal guarantee clause. So if the bank is politely knocking on the door, then that's what this policy will do and step in.

 

[00:15:42] Craig Arnatt: In rare circumstances, personal guarantee may not be required, but for the vast majority of loans, they are the de facto required. Lenders require it because it aligns incentives and gives them a backstop, of course. So it is not rare. It is the norm. And for most small business loans, the vast majority of acquisition financing in Canada, a personal guarantee is simply expected. So if you have a borrower to start, run or buy a business, odds are that you will have to be signing a personal guarantee.

 

[00:16:18] Craig Asano: And as an entrepreneur signing, putting your name, your house, your car, your assets, whatever you might have in that personal guarantee, let's break down the risk itself from that entrepreneur's perspective. What do they stand to lose in an example? Other than the obvious, the business would be required to liquidate assets, of course, to recover that loan payment. So, you know, the loan agreement will... What is the owner going to do? All they can do is liquidate, right?

 

[00:16:51] Craig Arnatt: So... The honest answer is that they understand in a way that we all understand that we should, you know, use dental floss. But in theory, that most moments of signing, they're not really. People hear about personal guarantee and think it's a formality. It is not a formality. It is putting real assets on the line. So the risk to the business owner is the entire personal balance sheet. Those personal assets will be required to be liquidated if the business is unable to fulfill that loan.

 

[00:17:23] Craig Arnatt: So everything outside the business, most people do not feel that there is that personal guarantee that until the The bank or the lender comes knocking and that's really the impact that we're trying to solve. So again, when I brought my brokerage, I signed a personal guarantee and honestly, I just had to do it because there was no way to avoid it. But it was scary, especially to my wife. We had to put the house up as collateral. So the burden is just like, I guess, metaphorically like a boat owner.

 

[00:17:57] Craig Arnatt: Your most exciting days of owning a boat is the first day you buy it and then the day you sell it. So a personal guarantee acts in a very similar way. You sign the loan and the excitement that comes with it. But it's always a great thing when you pay off the loan and you do not have that personal guarantee exposure. So until that time arrives, the PGI Cover is there to help. I like that analogy. It's like a sinking ship. It's like a pool. I look outdoors because I'm working from home today and it's the same thing.

 

[00:18:31] Craig Asano: When you get it, it's all exciting. And then every day it's a cost and you wish you never had it and hopefully fill it in. For someone who went through that experience as your own entrepreneur, you signed this for your mortgage brokerage. And being in the business to help solve the problem, what advice would you give to founders prior to them actually putting their name there? What do you think they need to know?

 

[00:18:31] Craig Arnatt: Well, I guess the obvious is whether you can repay the loan or not. That's obvious. Most founders are gung-ho and they see no downside at all.

 

[00:19:04] Craig Arnatt: I think the smart founders out there are going to look at what is the insurance policy doing at its core, right? If you have that liability exposure... And the worst case scenario happens, what's going to happen to you personally? So, again, I think it's very important that business owners understand that, you know, your liability policy is all about the actions of the business and your employees if they cause an accident or whatever. I mean, those traditional policies are there to protect the business or the personal impact of that.

 

[00:19:37] Craig Arnatt: Again, incorporating is defense line number one, and line number two is the insurance policy. So the advice really is to, as you're signing that loan, think about the personal guarantee, what the impact would mean to the family. and, and not, it's not just a loan, and find out if it is secured or not. obviously there are other aspects of joint or several who's on the guarantees that one person, many persons, what is exactly covered,

 

[00:20:08] Craig Arnatt: who is the signatoryy. So, you know, who is actually signing that loan agreement and who is the bank going to come calling to that person? Other things that are important is negotiating the cap. So some loans can have a cap of personal guarantee, others may not. So it depends on the lender itself. There's the different levels of lending, chartered banks, Canadian mezzanine financing, and then private financing itself.

 

[00:20:41] Craig Arnatt: As you go down the list from charter bank to private lender, obviously the private lenders are going to be a little more rigorous and a little more, I guess, aggressive if the loan is unpaid. So the advice is really just look at that personal guarantee, understand it. And then, you know, after you do understand it, then come to pgicover.com. So the and with that stack of lenders and the variance of their terms based on their loan contracts.

 

[00:21:13] Craig Asano: A default is a default and they're going to come calling you and that's it. Yeah. Yeah. It really is a timely product. I think there's a lot of movement in the markets that, you know, part of part of the research for the podcast and sort of moving on to the next section. We're sort of talking about the demand in Canada. You know, you're saying personal guarantees are required in almost all loans. But it has been here for eight years, eight years behind the UK somehow.

 

[00:21:45] Craig Asano: So as part of that research, Canada is entering, you know, this idea that there's, there's, it's a, it's a, it's a country with an older population now. I mean, I know we have immigration and there's a big hot debate about that, but a lot of the businesses and the business founders are getting older. And so usually a group would come in and get a loan and acquire that business and try to transfer those assets and, You know, that sort of business succession cycle. And, you know, can you like who do you feel that is going to demand for these products?

 

[00:22:19] Craig Asano: And why do you think it's important in Canada right now?

 

[00:22:19] Craig Arnatt: Yeah, it's a great question. And it is becoming very, very newsworthy. So Canada is staring down one of the largest business handovers in its history, right? There's an entire generation of owners that are retiring. A new wave of buyers and search funds, individual acquirers, M&A buyers. They have that ETA entrepreneurial through acquisition program. A process that is gaining momentum. So it is really stepping in to take, you know, when people come in and take that wheel,

 

[00:22:53] Craig Arnatt: they're inevitably going to have a loan that they're going to have to pay back. So, and almost all of them that are financing those purchases with debt. And so with that debt comes a personal guarantee. So you have a huge number of capable people buying good businesses, but they're putting up their personal net worth that is on the line. And one day before they even have learned where the light switches are, they're signing that loan guarantee. So that is exactly where this protection matters most.

 

[00:23:24] Craig Arnatt: It lets a buyer step in and deal without betting the family's security on a business that they're just getting into. And may not fully appreciate all the dynamics that are behind the scenes. So there is a huge potential for things to go sideways with an acquisition, of course. So where we're seeing in Canada is a growing trend where the sellers are also carrying the note for the purchaser. It's been a very ongoing trend in the US for a number of years. But in Canada, where we see the owners are having to retain ownership simply because the acquisition party doesn't have the funds or they're

 

[00:24:02] Craig Arnatt: only partial funding, this kind of thing. These sellers are still keeping that skin in the game. So I think that's why it's even more important and timely for this product to come along.

 

[00:24:02] Craig Asano: I understand that with business loans and personal guarantees, but are there other ways that this sort of product is going to evolve, like other use cases from a demand and need perspective? What are your thoughts there? Yeah, I think for our focus, we've really been just trying to identify with the core problem.

 

[00:24:36] Craig Arnatt: I'm a huge advocate of looking at other ways to venture out and to expand the marketplace and look at other different types of things other than loans. You know, there's other products that exist out there other than the Personal Guarantee Insurance clause, but such as transactional liability insurance, which has been around for a few years, which is another product that people may not be aware of, is that as a, there's one product from a company out of London, CFC, and they have a product that's pretty cool. It's from a seller's perspective.

 

[00:25:09] Craig Arnatt: If you're a seller of a business, The buyer comes along and all of a sudden they tank the business and whatever, so on and so forth. There's a number of things that go sideways there. So there is transactional liability insurance that protects the seller. But the common thread of a personal signature or guarantee is, to be honest, I haven't really focused on other aspects of it because we're trying to solve the core problem. But if any of my any listeners that are out there, you know, come up with ideas that we could look at, we're

 

[00:25:42] Craig Arnatt: all willing to have those discussions with anybody.

 

[00:25:42] Craig Asano: Yeah, that transactional angle, I can think of a variety of examples in our own experience that have come up over the years. So I think it's an interesting sweet spot to focus, I guess, insurance that's related. And it's exciting with all the technology capabilities coming into market and What can be underwritten there as well. But it's certainly an interesting space from a PGI Cover perspective.

 

[00:26:15] Craig Asano: You know, the Personal Guarantee Insurance that want to get into the more details in terms of the process and, you know, how it might work for a founder and, you know, working with PGI. And so, you know, if they've been approved for a loan, but it requires a personal guarantee, what's the next step? What do they do? Sure. So you can visit the website at pgicover.com and both a lender or a borrower can come and visit the site.

 

[00:26:46] Craig Arnatt: The flow is pretty simple. We will give you a quick assessment of the credit score just by entering the financial numbers of the business. No confidential information is needed as far as the company name or the person or the bank or the lender or that matter. We're just looking for the raw economic numbers. THANKS FOR JOINING US. And we will give an indication of whether the loan would be acceptable to underwrite. Our platform is using AI, so we're able to scrape loan documents and extract all the answers that we need.

 

[00:27:17] Craig Arnatt: So the user experience, we're trying to create a very smooth, streamlined approach to the application process. I hate filling out forms personally. So one of my core beliefs is trying to use automation as much as we can. In order to apply for the coverage. So the coverage is application process. Once that comes into the platform, it is underwritten using real people to look at the business, the economics, the environment,

 

[00:27:55] Craig Arnatt: the geopolitical aspects of where they're doing it and what they're doing. And then we come back with a quote within a couple of days, one or two days. And then we can provide coverage if they accept the terms of the policy. So in the materials here, I think maybe I read this online, that the coverage with the PGI Cover covers up to 80% of the guarantee. So as a founder, how should they think about that in practical terms?

 

[00:28:26] Craig Asano: What does that mean to them? Yeah.

 

[00:28:26] Craig Arnatt: Right, so coverage is currently available to million dollars and the retention or the deductible is 20%, which really acts to keep some skin in the game for the owner. The bottom line is that once the claim is settled with the lender, the policy pays the balance subject to the policy terms and conditions. So it's a pretty straightforward process. We're ensuring that personal guarantee attached to a business borrowing. And the policy just sits quietly in the background doing what most valuable things in insurance ever does,

 

[00:29:03] Craig Arnatt: which is do nothing right up until the day you need it.

 

[00:29:03] Craig Asano: And so that whole flow and the number or like the minutes, the hours, the days or however long, how long does that process take using AI? But you have human oversight, right? How long does it take to actually sign up and acquire this insurance? And it can be completely done digitally online? Yeah. Yes, absolutely. We can give an indication instantly. So there's a bit of a, yeah, it's a small widget that, again, you don't have to enter in any personal information in there.

 

[00:29:39] Craig Arnatt: You're just really looking at the raw economic numbers that you're looking at, your revenue, your overhead, the loan amount. We're going to ask you what the business category is, so the NAICS code. And then we'll be able to give you an indication right away. If the business is in a kind of a bad segment or some segments may not be qualifying, some pharmaceutical areas, cannabis, Bitcoin, there's some sectors that we just did not underwrite. But the indicator comes in very quickly.

 

[00:30:12] Craig Arnatt: It's just within a few minutes. And then the application process is a couple of business days. It's simply because it's not fully automated. We don't want to be taking an automated approach to this. We kind of want to understand who that business owner is, where they are, what they're doing, and take an honest assessment of that. So it is very much a human endeavor of the underwriting process, and that has to play through. Most of the times we're really trying to avoid back and forth because, again, I just really loathe that within the industry where some surprise question comes out of left field.

 

[00:30:47] Craig Arnatt: We're trying to cover all the bases, trying to make sure that every question that an underwriter is going to need is answered. So we look at the application as a number of gates that you can't get through unless the answers are there. So that's why we're trying to introduce the AI structure and that if something is missing, we can suggest a number of documents where that's going to be. Some loans actually have a separate personal guarantee system. Contract, a separate file, if you will. And so if something is missing from the original loan agreements that's not there,

 

[00:31:21] Craig Arnatt: the AI will suggest a certain kind of document you can try uploading. Everything is kept strictly confidential. This AI thing is running through an internal mechanism that's looking at trying to extract the answer. So it's trying to solve the number of questions. And once it gets all green on all the answers, then it can be sent off for underwriting. So the underwriting process is, again, that's a day or two, just because there is a person behind that underwriting. And then once that comes back with a quote, the indication of the premium,

 

[00:31:58] Craig Arnatt: the business owner or the borrower can accept that term right away. So our platform will guide them through that purchase workflow. They can sign up for monthly payments, pay for all at once. There's a number of different billing options that they can do. And then once that purchase is made, then the policy is issued right away. So there's no waiting and wondering what's going to happen with the policy issuance. It can be immediately bound. And coverage can be invoked right away. Well, that's good to know.

 

[00:32:29] Craig Asano: So it's all digital and about two days for the good human oversight that in 2026 we still cling on to. What about the costs? Is that a tricky question? The costs, you know, you're covering up to 80% of, let's say, a million-dollar financing, or maybe that's... That's a fair number. Maybe on the upper end of that scale, because your coverage goes up to a million, I believe you said earlier.

 

[00:32:59] Craig Asano: So what would the cost be to cover that?

 

[00:32:59] Craig Arnatt: Right. It is a huge variation on that cost, as you can well appreciate. Some businesses are more likely to have no problems versus others. So there's riskier endeavors, of course. And the price can widely vary between the amount of the loan and the personal guarantee. And so there's a number of factors that go into that pricing. Historically, you can look at, say, 1.8% to up to 3% of the guarantee. And that's really a ballpark for cost.

 

[00:33:34] Craig Asano: Yeah, that's fair, given the job that it's doing. And you hope it's just silent and you don't have to trigger it. But on that, if something bad happens, what are those triggers for a claim? And what is the claim process? Just to take this whole example right to both ends here. So what are the trigger claims and how would a claim work? Right. So in the loan, the technical term is a serious default.

 

[00:34:08] Craig Arnatt: That's where you get into beyond a month of not making the payment. And that is where you're getting the phone calls. So the serious breach of that loan agreement will be the impetus for the borrower may want to trigger that claim. It is important to note that buying the PGI Cover includes a number of benefits, even without the bank calling. We have a number of triage areas of the policy in the claims department that will lend assistance to a business owner.

 

[00:34:44] Craig Arnatt: So an example would be if a supply chain completely collapses and then there's a real problem with the business. We partner with a number of legal business advisors, accountants to look at that business structure, which kind of makes sense because the insurance industry or the insurance company doesn't want the claim in the first place. So we will make every effort to help that business owner weather a bad storm. Think of alternatives, talk with the lenders.

 

[00:35:17] Craig Arnatt: And so at the end of the day, where that claim is triggered, it is very much a negotiation with the lender to look at the big picture. So there'll be a negotiation of a claim to talk with the lender and discuss the business as a whole, discuss the liquidation of that business, if it's really coming down to it, where they need to liquidate. And then to provide comfort, the important aspect of the policy is to give comfort to the business owner. So if anybody's familiar with cyber insurance, it's treated very much a similar fashion is that cyber insurance isn't going to restore the data,

 

[00:35:56] Craig Arnatt: right? You can't put the genie back in the bottle if the data is compromised or you've been hacked. But what you can do is look at the restorative aspect of the claim. And so with cyber insurance, they're going to assure the customer that the company is taking steps to remediate any issues. They're taking all these steps and they're going to be doing this and that and so on and so forth. So with PGI Cover, it's done in a similar manner where the business owner isn't bombarded with a massive headache.

 

[00:36:28] Craig Arnatt: So it's going to take a lot of the pain And frustrations off their plate and give it to a claims department to deal with.

 

[00:36:28] Craig Asano: That's fantastic. I didn't realize that sort of level of support. I recognize that nobody wants it to happen, but to have that bridge of support and expertise will just help streamline in a difficult situation, a difficult time. So I think that's a great level of service in addition to the product. And, you know, so what are the other common misconceptions about, you know,

 

[00:37:02] Craig Asano: the coverage or how it works or what might be the top misconceptions? Let's see if we can alleviate some of them. Well, it's not a get out of business jail free card. So, you know, it's not going to pay off a vendor or, you know, kind of keep the business afloat. Right. There's there might be a misconception about Personal Guarantee Insurance. Oh, my business is going to stay in the game. It very much is that is predicated upon the calling of the loan itself.

 

[00:37:34] Craig Arnatt: It's gone beyond the business. It's now in the trajectory of that signatoryy, right? They're coming after that person. The business is defunct. There's no chance of restoration. And now they're coming knocking on your door. So the other misconceptions about it may be in a complicated process to get coverage. We're trying to make it very streamlined. We're trying to make it not a burden to get covered. It's not relatively expensive in the big picture of things. It's not personally, when you're thinking about structure of the premiums, it can be very much treated as a business expense.

 

[00:38:11] Craig Arnatt: so, you know, the reality is the cost of the coverage is small next to the thing that, that it really protects, which is the personal assets of that business owner, which is everything really, if you think about it at the end of the day, you know, a venture is, is only so good until that, that person is their personal assets are on the line. So that's what it's protecting. Yeah. The, the 1.8 to say 3% of, of the cost is, And the trade-off is you could lose up to the value of that loan that's being insured 100% of your personal assets,

 

[00:38:48] Craig Asano: which is the trade-off. So I think it's a good buy. I mean, insurance, I'm one typically, and I'll give you an example. When I buy a new washer dryer, they say, do you want insurance? And I'm like, oh, no, I don't need insurance. But my wife has got me on to, yes, you need insurance. And so-We have tapped into that insurance. Things break down. Things go go wrong. And at that point, you're like, man, I'm glad I've got insurance. And then I finally could find the documents. But no, so it's a good explanation of the restorative process, the recovery.

 

[00:39:25] Craig Asano: The support, but at the same time, how far, what it can do for you, but really what it's not as well, a little bit. I mean, the business still has an issue and, you know, tough decisions have to be made, but at least there'll be some protection of your personal assets, which is huge, I think, you know, these days. So, yeah. In this section of questions, the last one is really who's the ideal customer and who's like this product's not really for, who's the opposite.

 

[00:39:55] Craig Arnatt: So, you know, we can kind of get the message out to the right people who need it, who are going to benefit. And it's a right fit and it's a right product, product to market fit, as opposed to, you know, who's this is not really suitable for? Yeah. That's a good question. I think, you know, if I'm running an insurance brokerage and saying who'd want it, of course, I'm going to say, well, everybody would want it. Who wouldn't want that? So there's always that challenge to make someone identify with the need or to make them aware of it. I think the ideal customer, of course, is anyone who has signed that or is about to sign that personal guarantee.

 

[00:40:31] Craig Arnatt: I think in the big picture of things that have been with a weather storm, there's two aspects. Number one is do you have the wherewithal to liquidate your own business, be able to get out of that loan quickly. If you have a capital pool, you can pay that loan off. And you're willing to absorb that loss, then obviously the personal guarantee is not really worth it. You're just going to pay it and bite the bullet. On the other hand, there are more sophisticated buyers who, as I was earlier explaining about the hassles and the headache, honestly,

 

[00:41:05] Craig Arnatt: it's a big deal to deal with all that negotiation, the lending and all the phone calls and the harassments and all that kind of stuff. There is an aspect of some customers who just want to buy it just simply for the convenience. They may be able to afford it, but they just want to have that in their back pocket. So I think at the end of the day, it's going to work for anybody that's buying a venture that may be somewhat unknown or untested waters. As we were earlier talking about in the acquisition arena, you don't ever know what's really behind the scenes.

 

[00:41:39] Craig Arnatt: The vendor could be concealing something and there's a million things that can go sideways, of course. So I think at the end of the day, if you're in a business that has any uncertainty, whether it be supply chain or hidden risks, the most common thing to me, if I'm signing that loan agreement as a signatoryy, Why would I not want to take that policy and just put that in my back pocket? And again, when I was buying my brokerage, I just thought that it was a real pain point that had no solution up until

 

[00:42:14] Craig Asano: now. A little bit earlier in the show, you talked about an exclusion, which was crypto from, are there other exclusions? Or you said Bitcoin, but I'm assuming that's all crypto.

 

[00:42:14] Craig Arnatt: Yeah. Yeah. The exclusions are, well, not really technically with exclusions of the wording. Exclusion would be something like, you know, obviously fraud or illegal activities or no insurance policy to protect you from that. But there are certain industries that are untouchable as far as London capacity is going, right?

 

[00:42:49] Craig Arnatt: So when it comes to Bitcoin or crypto, that kind of stuff, it's very difficult to get that coverage. It's very speculative. That kind of thing can wipe a business owner out in a day, right? So with anything that's uncertain. And then, of course, legality of it. Cannabis has a lot of stigma in other countries. Obviously, Canada doesn't. But it's still a thing in other parts of the world, especially London, right? And then, you know, pharmaceutical stuff.

 

[00:43:19] Craig Arnatt: I mean, there's certain categories of industries that are kind of left untouched. But The encouraging part about this product is that we will look at startups. Even though a startup is the most riskiest venture that's out there, we will look at a startup as long as there is a funded element and they're revenue generating. We're not going to be looking at a startup that has no proven track record.

 

[00:43:51] Craig Arnatt: But for the big picture, we will look at any industry that is a viable, functioning, profitable business.

 

[00:43:51] Craig Asano: Okay. You know, that's all fair. So I want to talk a little bit about, you know, you mentioned earlier in the show about AI. And I know from our research, you call the kind of work that you've done on your product, the core, because I guess it's part of the core underwriting. But since you touched on it before, what I find more interesting,

 

[00:44:22] Craig Asano: Kind of very interesting for this next question is that in your bio, you talked a little bit about doing some work with the government on research on insurance related products and AI and large language models as well. Was there any interesting, what did you learn from that research that may be applicable to this conversation? And then You know, we can go from there. But really, it's a discussion around what sort of innovations, obviously, AI is a big part of that, that you

 

[00:44:54] Craig Asano: can see evolving the category. And, you know, what are your thoughts on that?

 

[00:44:54] Craig Arnatt: Well, the big takeaway is AI hallucinates. So I don't think it's surprising anybody. You know, the AI is not infallible, right? There's things that are going to go sideways. So we came up with the acronym CORE, and it's really just the Client Optimized Risk Engine. It takes inputs and it tries to guess at outcomes. It's really that simple.

 

[00:45:26] Craig Arnatt: And so we've adapted the core as an onboarding risk engine, which is the initial scoring of a risk. So instead of burying you in forms, you can upload the loan documents, balance sheets, so on and so forth. Certain documents are required to answer all these questions. So it reads the shape of the business, the boring, and it quickly tells us where the risk sits. So AI assistants are great at underwriting by doing repetitive reading or data scraping so that it helps underwriters make the decisions faster and they're

 

[00:46:00] Craig Arnatt: more consistent. So I think at the end of the day, AI is fantastic at parts humans find tedious and repetitive. And so generally bad things happen They're great at doing. so it'll analyze, you know, a hundred documents about complaining, right. And then, and completely miss the one piece of common sense that a person catches in seconds. So, so the magic is not AI replaced the underwriter. It's AI handing the underwriter superpowers and getting out of the way on that judgment call.

 

[00:46:31] Craig Arnatt: Yeah. So I think at the end of the day, our goal or our mission is to try to take the drudgery out of things when it comes to AI. It helps massively with the research. What's the trend lines out there? So I think in a time saving aspect, it's massively beneficial. But it's just a worry of letting these AI things take over in certain decisions or judgments. And that in itself has been a bone of contention with discussions.

 

[00:47:02] Craig Arnatt: Like you're thinking, oh, it won't be bias, right? It'll be completely honest. But sometimes that honesty can bring a very big risk. So sometimes bias, when it comes to humans anyways, can serve to cut down those losses, if you will. So I guess the AI, again, it can be beneficial to the workflows, right? But we still need the people to be really the gatekeepers, if you will, to make those underwriting decisions, the hard decisions,

 

[00:47:33] Craig Arnatt: and just put a personal spin on it. It's not always black and white. There's a lot of gray area with a number of businesses, of course, and the dynamics. AI can't guess the future, but it can completely help you understand the past.

 

[00:47:33] Craig Asano: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, that's certainly fair. In the research, I saw the word embedded insurance as part of sort of PGI Cover.

 

[00:48:04] Craig Asano: And I'd like you to kind of Talk a little bit about that. What does that mean to you? And is this part of the embedded finance more about distributing the products? And is it an API? Is that the future? Everybody's going to be selling these products through their platforms?

 

[00:48:04] Craig Arnatt: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. When I first started getting insurance, so you remember Expedia had the travel insurance when you're checking out, right? Yeah. So I think most people recognize that that's what I call embedded insurance.

 

[00:48:39] Craig Arnatt: It's, you know, you're buying that washing machine, right? And at that moment of the impulse moment, you're trying to make that decision. Do I really need the insurance when I'm buying this? Oh, I never even thought of that. And that's a great idea. Yeah. To buy that coverage. So, you know, embedded insurance means the protection shows up at the exact moment you need it. That's inside that process, you're already inside. Instead of being separate, Aaron, you run later, never do or forget to do. The API, yes, the API is able to do that. So if it's a lending platform, there's a number of Fintech things that are out there, of course.

 

[00:49:14] Craig Arnatt: But so when it comes to the initial score or an indication, we can provide that right away to somebody on any platform. So we do have the APIs published that anyone can code into. And we'll be able to give that product offering to someone at that moment. So, you know, a founder is kind of maybe wondering, you know, you never even thought about that, that personal guarantee. In a lot of cases, deals collapse because they don't want to take on that risk. So when it comes to these platforms, the fintech platforms, I mean, it's very easy to offer someone a loan.

 

[00:49:50] Craig Arnatt: But if we are able to inject that solution, it hopefully will grease the wheels of these deals. And as an entrepreneur myself, I love those kinds of solutions where it's going to help someone overcome any hesitation. to execute a deal and and in all these kind of discussions that we've been having i've talked to business owners like man if i wish i had that before because i said no to a deal and you know so i think in in the big picture it's trying to solve a real problem and hopefully be very beneficial and economically to a entrepreneur

 

[00:50:29] Craig Arnatt: Who may hesitate? So if we can embed that offer inside systems, you know, it's one of those kinds of products that no one would probably specifically go seek out because they just don't even understand it's there or they don't know about it. So I think at the end of the day, the embedded solution is really key for us. We're very much willing to or looking forward to talking to partners in the fintech space and leverage our APIs.

 

[00:50:29] Craig Asano: So that is a good bridge to the referral program because who are the partners you're looking for and how maybe that referral program

 

[00:51:08] Craig Asano: that they can code into the APIs and it's like that point of sale insurance pop-up as part of the workflow. Who would be the ideal partners? Because some of them might be listening right today and how would it work from their perspective?

 

[00:51:08] Craig Arnatt: Right. So referral, the term referral in the US, it's one of those phrases that the insurance industry frowns upon. Up until recently in Canada, the referral mechanism has been frowned upon.

 

[00:51:45] Craig Arnatt: They don't want to be perceived as sharing premiums with a third party that has nothing to do with insurance. So it's a very tight fisted endeavor. And I think a number of years ago, brokers started saying, well, what's the difference between me paying Google X dollars a month for ad spend, right? And then they refer a customer to me because I'm giving an advertising company a bunch of money. So referrals are very much a thing nowadays. And these partners can get a referral fee for simply recommending the product.

 

[00:52:24] Craig Arnatt: We don't want to have any of our partners talking about the policy wordings. You don't want the insurance element of insurance. You're not legally allowed to start talking about coverage and things like that. That's the job of a broker. But we very much want to encourage anybody in the industry to come and talk to us and discuss how that can work. So in the sense of business mortgage or, you know, borrowing mortgage partners, agents who go out and seek funds for businesses,

 

[00:52:57] Craig Arnatt: those people are very much on the front line of borrower between borrowers and lenders. They're right in the middle. So that's kind of our sweet spot. And they should, you know, they should get... Rewarded for encouraging that product and it and it's going to protect that buyer the borrower from that impact so it could be lenders brokers fintechs accountants all advisors are a perfect fit for us because they are in the room with that when the personal guarantee gets

 

[00:53:27] Craig Arnatt: signed or they may be a part of that discussion So they're there to help their clients. They're adding value and they're sharing in the growth of that category. So everybody wins, especially the founders who get told that there is an option finally.

 

[00:53:27] Craig Asano: Yeah, it seems that a lot of this is awareness, you know, partner onboarding, obviously, you know, on the right side of what all the regulations that exist and whoever might be on the front line with their licenses to be

 

[00:54:00] Craig Asano: the suitable partners in this case. So from a... Because I recognize, I mean, we're... Our time's being burning through, but we've got a few more questions that we'd love to cover with you here. And one is sort of your vision for PGI in the future and maybe a bit about scaling this new category challenge and You know how the the strategy of what you you see there and you know how that's going to ramp up and and you

 

[00:54:36] Craig Asano: know what is it going to look like in you know three to five years and what would you call success because it's a big challenge but i think it's a big opportunity so it's it's a very interesting project

 

[00:54:36] Craig Arnatt: Yeah, so I think what excites me most is talking about a new product that doesn't exist. It is very encouraging when you're talking about that product and then there is an immediate identification with the need. And then this spills over to the earlier products that I mentioned about transactional liability.

 

[00:55:09] Craig Arnatt: So we want to position PGI Cover as a go-to entrepreneurial platform for insurance with not just PGI, but transactional. And the common products, commercial general liability, directors and officers, errors and omissions. These are all the core products that we're going to bring forward. So in the acquisition space, you're going to be acquiring a business and there's a lot of that and insurance uncertainty. So we want to be the go-to place where you can get certainty of transactions.

 

[00:55:41] Craig Arnatt: And we're trying to build a one-stop shop for the executive board of a business, both startups and well-established businesses looking to expand. And five years out, that's a good question. I think success is really where Personal Guarantee Insurance is a normal line item, not just a novelty. When a buyer is closing a deal, expects it. When a lender is offering it by default and when a founder somewhere keeps their home because they've had it, it makes us look good and helps businesses win and succeed and grow.

 

[00:56:16] Craig Arnatt: So even if we can make a few of those real stories happen, I think we've done a good job.

 

[00:56:16] Craig Asano: You know, we've talked a lot about the need and, you know, the product and how it works and all these great things. And, you know, you're excited to be in the category. And, you know, as a builder and insurtech builder here in Canada, what... You talked about expanding it to all the other more common insurance product lines, I guess.

 

[00:56:51] Craig Asano: From a technology perspective, because this is really a fintech show, what are you going to focus on building next from a fintech perspective that you think would be exciting to talk about here?

 

[00:56:51] Craig Arnatt: Right. So when you're talking about a personal guarantee application, I've looked through all the different products, and if you're thinking extrapolating that information to other areas, we're building a profile that's very easily extendable into other products. So I think in other areas that you're looking at when you're bombarded with forms and hassles and all this kind of stuff,

 

[00:57:29] Craig Arnatt: we're very much building a complete risk model for a business. And as AI grows and we're able to look at trends, we want to build in these kinds of key elements within the structure of that profile for a customer's dashboard that gives them an understanding of all that risk elements and then trying to provide those solutions. So if PGI has already been done, they've completed that transaction, What are the other areas that are going to bring them risk? And what are those easy solutions? And I say easy because, you know, in many years of the business, it's always a challenge to get information out of the customer,

 

[00:58:05] Craig Arnatt: right? It's like you're always chasing after, you know... Questions that come up and renewals and the harassment around the insurance. There's always that element of harassing a customer to complete answers and whatnot. So we very much wanted to take the strategy that build it once and then that can be extended into different areas. And then opening up those APIs for other platforms and to build that confidence into other areas of the business and be that one place where we can use technology in a very much advantage to us.

 

[00:58:39] Craig Arnatt: Streamlining, quoting, purchasing, and then making that risk analysis a complete picture for the business. I mean, it seems that a lot of, with the advent of AI and how it's sort of proliferating into everyone's lives, that personalized risk profile, individual or company, as you're saying, it is the future because once you have that built and it's continuously improving and layering new data based on all sorts of transactional

 

[00:59:14] Craig Asano: inputs, then You can start to suggest in a decisioning engine, Okay, well, we've seen this before. Why don't we get a little ahead of it and get yourself some insurance? Because it's going to happen everything all at once. And so I think it's a very smart play. And hopefully you get that bill before anyone else does, or there's maybe a shared model in the future. So that's an exciting day to look out for.

 

[00:59:48] Craig Asano: It's sort of like Robinhood, the company that is in BNPL payments and all these companies are expanding to be, again, all things of financial services. They're into the same business. Building personalized Fintech services for the family. And to do that, they need that same profile. So eventually everyone's building these profiles because AI wants to consume that data And then service up and match us into, you know, all sorts of interesting products.

 

[01:00:25] Craig Asano: And in this case, you know, PGI Cover insurance products, which I think is a very exciting goal to have. So on that note, I think we're going to move to our rapid fire questions, which sort of signal we're wrapping up and there's a little fun part of the show. So We're not expecting long, elaborate answers. We're just short, rapid fire questions. So are you ready? Okay, go ahead. These are questions that are kind of expecting rapid fire responses.

 

[01:00:59] Craig Asano: So let's go. What's one risk entrepreneurs spend too much time worrying about? Competitors. Most businesses are not killed by a rival. They're killed by running out of road or just internal issues, partnerships, issues, supply chain, that kind of thing. So a tight ship is probably the best thing that an entrepreneur can focus on. The competition. And then, you know, the flip side of that is what's one risk that they don't spend enough time worrying about?

 

[01:01:30] Craig Arnatt: Well, a personal guarantee, of course. Yeah. Yeah, I've learned a lot about the product, but it's the need and the triggers to that decision to say, yes, it's worth the 2% or the 1.8 to 3% because it's going to save me a whole lot of hassle in the future and I could sleep at night. And I think that's really where the rubber hits the road. It doesn't matter if you're a founder or what the insurance product might be for, but that's really what it's for now.

 

[01:02:02] Craig Asano: That peace of mind, right? So next question. What's one thing most founders misunderstand about insurance?

 

[01:02:02] Craig Arnatt: That is a cost. Good insurance is not a cost. It's a permission to take the risk in the first place. It's very much a risk mitigation product. And if you're thinking about the cost versus the impact that not having it can bring is a real challenge. Absolutely.

 

[01:02:33] Craig Asano: What's one tech trend in insurance that you're watching closely? And I will add that we haven't talked about yet in the show that much.

 

[01:02:33] Craig Arnatt: Yeah. Well, you know, I think AI is the trend that we're focusing on is really bringing the big picture, as I was mentioning before, about the whole thing. And so in M&A space, there is a lot of people who may be buying the business, have no idea about all the different aspects of that business that can bring them real problems. So I think the AI moving in the sense that it can be a trusted advisor.

 

[01:03:06] Craig Arnatt: And I'll tell you one more thing. I've decided to cover that aspect. We're seeing in a trend with insurance brokerages acquisition, you know, these big box companies come along and buy up all the mom and pop brokers. So in a lot of cases, you're missing that personalized advice that a broker brings. Insurance brokers, their job is really to inform. And the problem we're seeing this trend where these frontline agents are not understanding. They may be new. They don't fully understand the business.

 

[01:03:36] Craig Arnatt: They don't even know the person. So the business owner might not even know their agent's name anymore. So I think what we want to try to do is use AI in the sense of, okay, here's all the kind of stuff that's happened traditionally, and here's the things you should know. And then when it comes to the risk analysis of a business, the trends, the geopolitical aspects of it all, these things can play an important role in the M&A space, which I think will be very beneficial to the acquisition people that are out there. Mm-hmm.

 

[01:04:08] Craig Asano: Yeah, the bots will do the drudgery of data collection. Yeah, very true. What's one prediction you have for business lending over the next five years?

 

[01:04:08] Craig Arnatt: Prediction is that everybody who's lending money will know about our PGI product and recommend it. And recommend it. It's exciting. I think if you, if you, you're, you're first to market, there's a, an advantage, but there's also international jurisdictions have a lot of,

 

[01:04:38] Craig Asano: experience and, and transactional data, that have been built up. So I, and it sounds like that has been, you know, working. So there's no reason why I can't work here in Canada, which is, A remarkable thing. But before we move to the close, is there anything you'd like to, you know, that we might have missed or that you'd like to cover or you'd like to leave the audience with as we move to close the show?

 

[01:04:38] Craig Arnatt: I think we covered a lot of good ground. Just maybe how to reach out to us.

 

[01:05:09] Craig Arnatt: Is that is that up next or should we? Well, absolutely. I mean, like I know you talked about PGI Cover, but and we'll put up links in the show notes when we publish this and and put it online. But yeah, how do they contact you? Sure. The easiest way to contact us is to visit the pgicover.com. You can see all the documents and we have a pretty extensive blog talking about different aspects of the product and see if it's a fit. And the process of getting that initial score is online there, of course.

 

[01:05:45] Craig Arnatt: But I also love talking directly with people. So you can reach me directly through my email at craig at pgicover.com. I'm also on LinkedIn, as well as x at craigarnatt_pgi.

 

[01:05:45] Craig Asano: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, no, Craig, it's been an excellent conversation. As always, I've learned a lot. I want to thank you on behalf of the NCFA community and all our listeners here about sharing your expertise. And you're welcome, you know, anytime in the future.

 

[01:06:18] Craig Asano: So it's been great. It's been great. So any last thoughts? Nothing. It's always a tough thing because after an hour's conversation, there's almost not much more to say. But, you know, I just want to say we do welcome you back in a few years time and what we're going to check in and see the growth, the traction, see what you've built based on, you know, that that original vision, if that's Okay with you. Absolutely. I really appreciate your time having me on.

 

[01:06:49] Craig Arnatt: And I do look forward to, to connecting with you in the future and hopefully we can talk about our, our trajectory in Canada and how we're helping the, helping the entrepreneurs win out there.

 

[01:06:49] Craig Asano: Yeah. And if any, you know, potential partners for PGI Cover or founders, that might be interesting product. Please do get in touch with Craig Arnatt. He he's a, You know, wealth of information and sure tech. And he has this incredible product that you absolutely need. So with that, I will just say if as we close the show, if you're new to Fintech Fridays, please check out some of the incredible past episodes, which are all up on the site. And we look forward to seeing you next Friday for another episode of Fintech Friday. So have a good weekend, everyone. Thank you. You've been listening to Fintech Fridays, brought to you by NCFA and Partners. Tune in weekly for the latest Fintech Friday podcast by subscribing to this channel. The National Crowdfunding and Fintech Association of Canada is a nonprofit actively engaged with social and investment Fintech sectors around the globe and provides

 

Outro : you've been listening to Fintech Fridays brought to you by NCFA and partners. Tune in weekly for the latest fintech Friday podcast by subscribing to this channel. The National crowdfunding and Fintech Association of Canada is a non-profit actively engaged with social and investment fintech sectors around the globe and provide education research industry stewardship services and networking opportunities to thousands of members and subscribers. For more information please visit ncfacanada.org.

 

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EP64: House Rich Cash Poor And The New Home Equity Playbook

Featured Guest: 

SHAEL WEINREB, Founder and CEO, The Home Equity Partners (LinkedIn)

Links

• Website:  theheqpartners.com
• LinkedIn:  Shane Weinreb
• Contact Email:  Sweinreb@theHEQPartners.com

About this episode

Duration:  53 mins

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Fintech Friday Transcript of Episode 64:

SHAEL WEINREB, Founder and CEO, The Home Equity Partners (LinkedIn)

Intro: Welcome to fintech Friday's a weekly podcast brought to you by the National Crowdfunding and Fintech Association of Canada and partners. Covering all things fintech, blockchain, AI and alternative finance.

 

[00:00:35] Craig Asano: Hello, everyone. My name's Craig Asano, the Founder and CEO of NCFA Canada, the National Crowdfunding & Fintech Association of Canada, welcoming you to Season 4, Episode 64 of Fintech Fridays. It's a weekly podcast brought to you by NCFA and Partners, where we sit down with incredible people in the fintech and funding community, talk about their journeys, their projects, innovations, milestones as well as trends and developments, all from their perspective. So today, we have a fantastic guest with us. I'd like to introduce Shael Weinreb. He's the Founder and CEO of The Home Equity Partners, otherwise known as HEQ for Home Equity.

He's responsible for managing all aspects of the business, with his particular focus on corporate strategy, capital partners, and value creation. He brings 15 years real estate experience, and he's held executive roles at Republic Developments and Starlight Investments.

He's also served as the president and COO, or the operating officer, so he's got operating experience at Freed Developments. He holds a law degree from Queen's University Faculty of Law, and a BA from Guelph. So Shael, thanks so much for joining us today.

 

[00:01:47] Shael Weinreb: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here.

 

[00:01:50] Craig Asano: I always love the bios. I always wonder how it makes the founders feel.

 

[00:01:57] Shael Weinreb: Yeah.

 

[00:01:58] Craig Asano: Welcome to the show. We're looking forward to this. I've dabbled in real estate myself, believe it or not, over the years. So I'm particularly interested in the conversation and learning more about everything we're going to go through today. So just to kick things off, for anyone who hasn't actually heard of HEQ, or The Home Equity Partners, what does HEQ do and what problem is it solving for Canadian homeowners?

 

[00:02:28] Shael Weinreb: Yeah. So, the Home Equity Partners is really designed to offer an alternative solution for homeowners to access equity in their home. So up until recently, there's been a handful of ways and most of those products are debt related products.

So, if somebody has built up a sufficient amount of equity in their home through paying down their mortgage and generally paying down their mortgage and sort of being a responsible homeowner the products, to the extent that they want to pull equity out of their house, they've really been limited to things like a HELOC, a refinancing where they're upping their mortgage in some cases, if you're 55 or older, a reverse mortgage, and in some extreme cases, really selling your home.

So in some cases, people might have a $150,000 problem, but because they can't access credit from an institution, they have to sell a $2 million asset to deal with a $150,000 problem.

And that can be really unfortunate. So the Home Equity Partners is really a model that is replicated in some ways based on the success that it has had in the US. It has been around for probably the better part of 20 years in the United States.

You know, and when I look at it, and how sort of popular it has become over the last number of years, and how many families it's been able to help across the US, I saw a lot of parallels between what was happening there and what was happening here, and we decided to be able to offer the same product to Canadian homeowners, the same way that US homeowners have had the benefit of over, like I say, the last almost quarter of a century. And so it's really designed to provide a different way for homeowners to think about how they access built-up equity in their home.

 

[00:04:17] Craig Asano: Fantastic. It's another one of these stories where Canada's years, if not decades, behind some of these innovations. So thank you for bringing these solutions to market.

 

[00:04:30] Shael Weinreb: Absolutely.

 

[00:04:30] Craig Asano: So one of the things we do on the Fintech Fridays podcast, we always dig into a little bit about the founder's story, a bit more on the background. So if you don't mind, just for the audience, sharing a bit about your background of what led you to launch The Home Equity Partners. What has that first year experience been like? Have you crossed any milestones? In preparing for the podcast, I came across a press release that talked about $11 million in shared equity value now.

So that's a good segue into a little bit more about you, Shael, and really, as a founder and what that experience in the first year has been like right up to today, in terms of a timeline.

 

[00:05:15] Shael Weinreb: Yeah, I think it's a great question. Listen, I mean, I think I knew from a relatively early age that I wanted to become sort of an entrepreneur or in the business world. And as I got older, I started to sort of go back and forth between law, and really becoming a lawyer based on some legal shows that I watched. And I sort of watched a lot of the action in the courtrooms on television with shows like Suits, LA Law, and so on.

And I thought there was something really cool about being able to be a litigation lawyer, and be able to go into a courtroom and formulate an argument for a client that was in need of some representation, and to really help sort of fight the fight, I guess you could say. And so I had a bit of an identity crisis. I knew I wanted to go to university, so I ended up at Guelph, like you said. I graduated with an honours degree in criminal justice and public policy.

And I said, "Even if I don't want to become a lawyer for the rest of my life," I always figured that a law degree would be a really great education, and would serve me well in the corporate world, assuming that I wanted to try my hand at entrepreneurship. So I went to Queen's University Faculty of Law, like you said, graduated, worked on Bay Street for a number of years, and then left private practice on Bay Street, and I transitioned into in-house corporate kind of roles, like in-house legal roles for a couple different companies. So that... And, these were real estate development companies.

So I could learn about real estate, and I could continue on as a practicing lawyer. So I would provide legal advice to those companies.

And then ultimately, when I was working for a company called Freed Developments, like you said a few years into my employment there, I was promoted from in-house counsel to chief operating officer, and then eventually promoted again to president and chief operating officer. And that was really the first time in my career, and that probably goes back to 2019, I would say, that was really the first time my career where I could start really making business decisions.

And really, even though I had a boss that I was accountable to, I certainly had a lot of influence, and I really liked the action that came along with making important decisions and living with those outcomes, and coming up with strategies to sort of arrive at the most successful outcomes that we thought were possible.

And with that taste, as president and COO of the company, I knew for sure that I wanted to see what I was capable of doing in my own sort of business. So I stuck around in real estate development for the next number of years, and while I was working for Republic Developments, like you said, and Starlight, somewhere in the back of my mind, I started sort of experimenting in my head with different ideas. I was looking around the world at maybe some inspiration for what other countries were doing in different areas, and then ultimately, it was really based on personal circumstance.

And I've, I've actually said this before, but my father, just in 30 seconds, my father was very sort of equity rich, cash poor. And so he had a house in the GTA. House was worth about two million dollars. He had a $100,000 mortgage on the property, so he had about a $1.9 million equity position in his home.

He went to the Bank of Nova Scotia, where he had banked for over 40 years, and said, "Listen, I'm 80 years old. I have a pretty substantial equity position at my home. I'm not liquid. I don't really have other assets at this time, and I really need $100,000 to deal with a problem." And the bank said no. They took it to their underwriting team and they said no. And at 80 years old, when you've only banked at one institution your entire life, if they shut you out, you have no idea where to go. Sort of, to me, the alternative lending universe is very complicated.

There's some good ones, you know, there's some bad ones. There's some predatory lenders, there's some loan to own lenders, you know, but there's some really great ones as well. But I think for the average person who doesn't really know much about the industry, it can become a really scary place.

And what I really discovered was that, you know, through some of my own research, I figured that there had to be a better way. And what I mean by that is not just kind of taking out like a second mortgage with a high coupon and then have a one year term attached to it and have to figure out a way to pay it back. And so I looked at the United States, like I said.

I found this concept of a home equity sharing program, and I said to myself, "My dad can't be the only one in the GTA that's going through this." You know, because of restrictive lending practices that a lot of these institutions have in place there have to be a lot of otherwise qualified people who are being shut out every day by the only lender that they've ever known.

So we want to be able to provide sort of a soft landing for them with our product, and not only provide a soft landing with more sort of flexible criteria, but a very different way of thinking about how you take out home equity, and in some ways, a much more friendly way, instead of taking out loans at high interest rates. So that was the inspiration behind the company.

It was really, I think the flick the switch went off in my head through my dad's experience, and then the motivation was to try and help other people like my father, you know, really across this country eventually to help people be able to deal with their financial problems and have some disposable income that they can live on. I think that's the greatest motivational impetus we'll say for, for launching a business. I mean, it resonated with me. I think everyone...

 

[00:10:45] Craig Asano: Well, my father's 84 too, so every situation's a little bit unique, but I absolutely get it. But the fact that it's been in the US for so long and it hasn't been here and it's brand new, we'll call it sort of like a new financial product. It's a new financial category in some way.

 

[00:11:16] Craig Asano: Have you run into a lot of challenges and pushback from some of the folks that you're working with or what sort of lessons and insights you might have for other founders? Because we do have founders, we have investors listening to podcast that might be worth sharing at this point in terms of what you're trying to do, because I think it's important for everybody.

 

[00:11:43] Shael Weinreb: Yeah. So, it's very interesting. Like, what I've learned is starting a business from scratch is hard enough, let alone start a completely new category that's really never existed before. And this is a category that plays to people's emotions because, in many cases, their home is their biggest asset and there's lots of financial disclosure that has to take place before you can qualify for the product. Similar to, like, a mortgage application, but you're giving your debts, your assets. There's a level of trust there.

And so for a lot of people when it comes to home and finances, people are particularly passionate and paranoid, rightfully so. And dealing with a group like ours, the Home Equity Partners, who's been around for a year with a brand new product that nobody's ever heard of, it's an obstacle. it's certainly an obstacle and there is pushback.

And what we often get is that we are compared to reverse mortgages. And why are we compared to reverse mortgages? Because with our product, there are no interest payments for up to 10 years, and I think one of one features of a reverse mortgage is no interest payments. So once people hear no interest payments, automatically, they revert back to reverse mortgages. Our products couldn't be any more different, other than the fact that there is no interest payment, but in our sense, there really is no interest payment.

In their case, there are no cash payments every month, but there is interest on a reverse mortgage, but it simply accrues behind the scenes. the interest meter is theoretically running 365 days a year, 24 hours a day, but you're just generally not out of pocket every month where you're forking over the $400 a month interest payment.

Instead, it's accruing and tabulated at the end of every year. So if you take out 100 grand at the end of the year, you do have a $7,000 interest bill, but you're just not out of pocket on it every month, and then it compounds every year. So that's, that's been something that we've really had to kind of focus on is distinguishing between our product and a reverse mortgage, because sometimes they get lumped in together. And then just education in our product is really the most important thing for us right now is making sure people understand why this product makes sense and get them to believe in it the way that we believe in it.

 

[00:14:03] Craig Asano: Well, this is perfect segue into let's try to break down that education here of what's known as a HESA, the Home Equity Sharing Agreement.

 

[00:14:14] Craig Asano: For those listening for the first time what are the mechanics, like, from a homeowner's perspective? How does it actually work?

 

[00:14:23] Shael Weinreb: Yeah. So, high level, the maximum investment that we'll make in any one house is $500,000. So the upper limit is 500,000, the minimum investment from a dollar perspective is $50,000. So that's number one. $500,000 on the high end, $50,000 on the low end. Number two, we invest anywhere between five to 17.5% of the value of one's home. Five to 17.5%. So if the home, as an example, is worth a million dollars, gets appraised a million dollars, we will cut a check to the homeowner for anywhere between $50,000 all the way up to $175,000.

So 50,000 being 5% of the value of one's home, all the way up to 175,000, or 17.5% of the value of the home, and anywhere in between. So those are kind of like our goal posts, 5% to 17.5%. So let's say, hypothetically, you have a house that's a million dollars. Okay? And you came to me and you said, "You know what? I want a HESA," which is a Home Equity Sharing Agreement.

We would look at your file, we would look at your application. And let's say, hypothetically, you qualified for 10% of the value of your home based on the appraised value, which is $100,000. 10% of a million is 100,000. So fine. So you would get the $100,000. There'd be an application fee of 3.9% that we would take off the top, that would come off as a disbursement on closing, and you as the homeowner would be responsible for the legals and title insurance and the appraisal fee. So there's a handful of disbursements on closing. The net goes to you. It's a one time fee of 3.9%. There's no renewals. You have the money for 10 years.

It's an up front payment. We don't, we don't sort of enforce another payment along the way. There's no disposition fee. It's just a one time fee to us for the decade that you have the money for. Now, going back to what I was saying.

So you take out a 10% position, or $100,000, the idea is how do you arrive at the profit split? Meaning, moving forward, to the extent that your house rises in value, how much does the Home Equity Partners receive and how much does the homeowner receive, or you receive? What we do is we apply a four multiplier, or a four multiple, to whatever the percentage amount is that we invest. So in other words, if we invest or take a 10% position, we would be entitled to 40% in any change in value moving forward during the duration of our relationship. So because you took 10% of the value of the home. We simply multiply that 10 by 4, we arrive at 40%.

So that means 40% for us, 60% for you. Had you said to me, "Shael, I need 5% to the value of my home," at a million dollars, which is $50,000, we would take 20% of any future change in value. You, as the homeowner, would retain 80%. So five times four.

So whether it's five times four, six times four, seven times four, eight times four, nine times four, and so on, all the way up to 17.5%, times four. So whatever that number is, that really determines the profit split. So that's how you come up with that particular part of the program. The other thing that I should mention is that we discount the value of the house. So if the house gets appraised by a million dollars, we discount the value of the house by 5% on day one, meaning that allows us to arrive at what's called the starting value.

So if your appraised house comes at a million, for our internal purposes, it, the real starting value is $950,000. So we'll give you the $100,000 based on the million, and the 10% is based on the million. But to establish the starting line, we discount it by 5%, so it's $950,000. And we do that for a number of reasons.

The most important of which is that what we can't have happen is we, you know, you come to us with $100,000. We give you the $100,000. The house is appraised a million. Nine months later, you call me up, you say, "You know what, Shael? I want to pay you back the $100,000." We re-appraise your house in nine months. In all likelihood, it's still a million dollars, and therefore, you get the 100 grand for free for nine months. That can't be the way that we run our business. That's not fair to our investors. That's, that, we can't be in business that way.

So our product is really designed to be for homeowners who really want to hold on to the product for probably three years and longer. If, if it's kind of like a quick in and a quick out, and you really want to be in it for, like, 8 to 12 months, based on that 5% discount, it probably doesn't make sense. It becomes really expensive.

But if this is something that you're using to kind of continue to remain in your home for the next five to seven years before you downsize, or you have a mortgage, and now your mortgage payments are significantly higher because of the mortgage renewal kind of wave that has occurred over the last number of months and moving forward. This gives you the opportunity to create, like, an extra fund, effectively, to make up for that shortfall so that your cash flow isn't impacted for renovations, and you want to live in your home, but you want to renovate or do some updates to your home.

So there's lots of use cases. One of the cases that we've seen is even a divorce, where husband and wife break up. Husband wants to buy wife out of the property, but doesn't have the funds to be able to do that.

So the husband came to us for a six-figure number to be able to buy his wife out of the home. And now, they'll be able to keep the family home, which is great, and, you know, sort of the wife moves on. And in the absence of having our product, they would have had to sell the home, and that wasn't what he wanted to do. He wanted to sort of continue to remain there. Especially with kids, it can become challenging in not having to sort of uproot them, so we could be a great solution for that.

So, lots of different use cases where our product could be applicable, but I think, just to repeat myself, 5 to 17.5%, minimum $50,000 investment, upper limit, $500,000. Whatever the percentage amount is, we multiply it by four to arrive at what our share is versus the homeowner's share. And then we simply discount the starting value by 5%, or the appraised value by 5%.

Those are really the key kind of mechanics to the program.

 

[00:20:53] Craig Asano: That settlement period, though, you mentioned with a couple of the use cases. I don't know if it was the divorce, but it was, it may not make sense if it's within, say, three year or five-year.

 

[00:21:05] Craig Asano: You're looking more long-term. That settlement period, is it not fixed or agreed, or it's flexible based on the use case?

 

[00:21:15] Shael Weinreb: Yeah, no. listen, I mean, there's no, there's no handcuffs to the program. You can exit at any time you want. You can call me tomorrow. Like, you can take the investment today and call me tomorrow. The, what we're trying... discourage people from doing, is taking out money for the short term because of that 5% discount. Like I say, if, if you could find that money elsewhere at 5%, you're probably better off that way, to be 100% honest with you. But the other sort of part to the program is we will actually participate in a loss with you. So how does that happen?

So going back to the million dollar example, there's two situations, really, that we will participate in a loss. One, there's a three year blackout period. So for the first three years of the program, we will not participate in the loss with you. We are going to hold you to that million dollar number. So even in year two, if you sell your house for $830,000 after year two, we're still going to hold you down to that million, we're going to hold you to that million dollar number. So you're responsible for that million dollar number for the first three years. After three years, we will start participating in the loss with you.

So how does that work? You have to sell your property. You can't buy us out of the loss. So in other words, if in year five, we enter into a massive recession, housing prices have plummeted, your house has now dropped from a million dollars to $600,000, you can't be opportunistic, call us up and say, "You know what? I have a bunch of money on hand. The house has now plummeted in value. I want to buy you out of the loss." You have to crystallize that loss by selling your home and effectively standing by that with us, not just by buying us out.

The second way in which we'll participate in a loss is if the full 10 years, you've been with us for the full 10 years of the program, and your house is worth less in 10 years than it was on day one. So those are the two ways that we really participate in a loss. So three years has to expire from the commencement date of the program, and then you have to sell your house to crystallize that loss with us, or you have to wait the full 10 years. But we will participate in a loss. So, even in my dad's example, my dad sold his house in 2022 at the height of the market.

Had he taken out a reverse mortgage at that time to stay in the home, effectively what would have happened over the last four years is that the reverse mortgage would have eroded his equity in the house, because, as interest accrues. So that's really eating away at the existing equity that you have. And then he's also experienced market depreciation over the last four years. That same house that was worth 1.9 and change would, could, could easily be worth 1.7 now.

So he'd be down $200,000 on market depreciation, and he would also be down tens of thousands of dollars in interest, if not at sort of like maybe the $100,000 mark. So he would have experienced substantial loss. On the flip side, with our product, had he gone into a HESA with us, and he sold his house after year three like he did, and he experienced a loss, we would have participated in that loss with him. So as, as painful as the depreciation was, he wouldn't have had the added kicker of a $100,000 interest bill. Because with us, there is no interest. We simply win when you win as the homeowner.

We make no money if the homeowner doesn't make money. So we're completely aligned, unlike lenders that are not aligned. All they really care about, obviously, is making sure that they get paid back their principal loan and they get their interest every month. So my dad would have been much further ahead with a program like ours than a reverse mortgage.

 

[00:24:52] Craig Asano: Yeah, for, for sure they're only interested in making that payment. You could, you might get one free missed payment, otherwise your phone's going to be going off the hook. I can already envision we're going to need a follow-up to go through the spreadsheets, to go through. I think if, if you can talk to the differences between some of the options, I think that would be beneficial for someone who's been introduced to it for the first time, and sort of looking at their use case to seeing where it might fit, which product in the market might fit. So HELOCs versus the reverse mortgage, which you kind of touched upon.

 

[00:25:43] Craig Asano: Where do you see, from your experience dealing with homeowners today, and how your product compares with the options?  What are the fundamental difference from that homeowner's perspective? I'd be just Is it an easy thing to summarize? Yeah?

 

[00:26:01] Shael Weinreb: Yeah, sure. I mean, when you look at the reverse mortgage, there's a couple of things that really stand out. One, you have to be 55 and older. So that's number one. So there's no age restrictions with our product. Number two, their loan to values are generally much more conservative than ours. We are prepared to go up to 75% loan to value, whereas I think at the absolute maximum, a reverse mortgage will go up to 59% loan to value. And they do that from like sort of an actuarial perspective, because they never want to be in a position where effectively the house runs out of equity, right?

So if you live up until a certain age, and if the interest meter keeps running, theoretically, they can put themselves in a position where the interest has exceeded the amount of equity in the property. So they're very sure not to do that.

So our loan to values are generally much higher, so people can qualify for more money with our product than you can with a reverse mortgage. And like I said we're aligned with the homeowner, where, like I said it's very much about profit participation instead of focusing on loan and interest. The other thing with a reverse mortgage, too, is that if you have an existing first mortgage, they will never go in second position. So if you have an existing first mortgage with an RBC or TD of the world they are going to insist to pay out your existing first mortgage. And what could that do?

That could trigger a prepayment penalty... that could trigger a much higher interest rate than the coupon that the homeowner currently has with their day-to-day lender.

So they will never go in second position, so you have be prepared to take out money from them to pay out your first mortgage, which could, like I say, could trigger additional fees and a higher interest rate. As far as traditional products go, it really comes down to cash flow, and it really comes down to your appetite for risk. I mean, if you have a lot of disposable income and you can afford the monthly payments associated with a loan, that's fine. That's, there's an opportunity for that.

I'm not suggesting that we're taking over the entire home equity market and we're, like, an all-in-one solution for everybody and we're far better than every other product. That's not the case. There, there's going to be pros and cons of every product.

And so, with our product, you have to stomach risk to a certain degree, because if your house skyrockets in value, naturally our product could become really expensive, right? Do we see it over the next couple years, where house prices are going to skyrocket? No, we don't. Is it important to sort of keep an eye on what's happening? I think so. But we, what we try to do every year with homeowners is really provide sort of, like, as much transparency as possible. So as a homeowner, what you're going to have is you're going to have your own portal, and we're going to tell you every year approximately what your house is worth.

So if you gave us a house at a million dollars on day one and we gave you $100,000 investment and that helps you arrive at, like, sort of a profit split, we have technology that's going to say in year two that your house is maybe worth a million 20 now based on comps in the neighbourhood or whatever. So now your total exposure to us has gone slightly up. In year three, again, these are just approximates, we don't know definitively, but in year three, your house could be worth a million 10, and therefore your exposure to us has gone down, right? It's less expensive in year three than it was in year two.

So we're going to do our best to make sure that after year 10, if you stay with us that long, there's no sticker shock. We don't want to catch anybody by surprise.

We want to over communicate with homeowners to make sure that they understand along the journey exactly what their exposure is and how it all works. There's no games. There's no hidden surprises. That's not what we're doing. we're trying to run a fully transparent operation. We give homeowners a homeowner guide at the beginning to make sure that they review everything and understand the way our policies work.

So with us, you need to stomach a little bit of risk if you think that your house is going to go up, but I think with a line of credit, you also have to be able to expect that there's going to be interest rate fluctuations. So right now, interest rates are relatively low, and everybody sort of has a different interest rate. Like some people have prime plus 2% or 3% or 4%, depending on kind of what status level you are at the bank.

But if interest rates go up, then obviously the cost to borrow becomes more expensive too. So there isn't a product that's perfect. I think it really depends on what your needs are, and if cash flow is paramount to you, I would argue that we're a really great alternative to a loan where it's only going to sort of erode your cash flow even more, whereas with us, you don't have a single payment for a decade.

 

[00:30:55] Craig Asano: That sounds like music to my ears cash flow. Well, looking at this, it has been very transparent. I think that's excellent information. I mean, obviously there's a lot of details. It comes down to the contract, comes down to the meetings. But from what you've seen with the $11 million in built-up home equity share value at HEQ, what is, like, the top two, three use cases, and then maybe one or two, where is it not suitably aligned to a homeowner's situation? If we can just... Because I think that would just summarize...

And this is in the conditions of the market, current real estate market over the next few years. Nobody has a crystal ball, but let's, you know, basically those are the parameters, and what do you think, who should be coming to speak to basically HEQ two or three use cases, and then really who should not?

And I think, that's sort of like an acid test, a starting point for people to determine, should we go talk to Shael?

 

[00:31:56] Shael Weinreb: Yeah, no, it's a, it's a great question. So I think for people that come to us and the couple use cases, like you said, are really people in one case, well, in, in more than one case, people that have accumulated a lot of debt. Credit cards, CRA arrears, property tax arrears, people that are credit-impaired, that really sort of can't qualify for a traditional loan even if they'd like to. But I think when you, when you come to us and you're, you know And there's no shame in it. It happens to everybody, right? Like, the cost of living is extremely expensive.

The income tax system that we have here in this country is incredibly high and probably some of the most punitive, I think amongst various places around the world. Everything that we buy has to have HST on it, so everything that you buy is subject to 13% sales tax, and then you have property taxes.

Like, for the average person, you're not really putting much money in your pocket. By the time you pay for a car and a mortgage and insurance and some gasoline and some groceries, there's not a lot left over. So there's no shame in, having sort of a cash flow shortage. And so if you, if you get yourself into a position where your credit cards are starting to get maxed out and you're starting to fall behind on a number of payments, obviously one, your credit score goes, goes down substantially, so your, your ability to borrow moving forward is impacted by that.

And by coming to us, there's going to be an overall cost to the product, assuming that your house goes up, but you can't look at that in isolation. What you also have to consider is the cost savings by paying all of those things off.

So we, for all our homeowners, will model effectively what the cost of our product is, and the two driving kind of levers for what our cost of our product is obviously one is time, how long you hold the product, and then two, what happens to your property over time. Those are the two main levers that's going to determine the overall cost. And we have a bunch of sensitivity analysis, three year, five-year, seven-year and 10 year terms, and then 3%, 4%, 5% appreciation rates, or whatever it is. And that helps you to arrive at an overall cost. So there's going to be a cost if your house goes up.

But like I said, you also have to think about, one, peace of mind, and two, the fact that now you don't have those 20% interest payments on your credit card anymore. And now your credit score is going to start to slowly but surely start to come up.

And then maybe in a few years from now, once you can have an ability to start borrowing again at maybe a more conventional institution, if that's what your comfort level is, then you can start to do that.

So I would say it's people that are sort of starting to fall behind financially, and then people that are just seniors that really do want to stretch their time in their home and they can use our HESA money almost as like a quasi-pension, where they can really live off it Because many people are retiring today without pensions and they can really live off it, and it allows them, based on whatever fixed income they have, to supplement that with our product. And now they can comfortably go out for dinner.

They can comfortably maybe take a trip once a year to a warmer climate during the colder months. They can more comfortably pay their mortgage if they need to.

They can more comfortably maybe help their kids or grandkids with a little bit of help or financial assistance. So we're starting to see more seniors look to it, look to us, and the product is, like I say a reward, in my view, for having built Been able to build up that equity through sort of a lower interest rate environment for a number of years and really sort of paying down your mortgage every month. So I would say those are kind of the two use cases that I see more and more in terms of people that are really looking to us for the product.

And as far as people that should potentially stay away from the product, truthfully, just people that really want to be in it for, like, a year or two.

Like I said before, with that discount of 5% and not really knowing where right real estate prices are going over the next year or two, it can become expensive and certainly far more expensive than taking out a 5% credit line, if they can qualify for that. So I think if, if you're really in it for, call it a minimum of 30 to 36 months and beyond, I think we start to become very attractive.

But if you're looking at it for 8 to 12 months because you need to settle, like, a short term obligation, then you want to get out in 12 months would encourage you to sort of look around and compare our product to other products that might be available

 

[00:36:27] Craig Asano: Yeah. No, that's excellent.

 

[00:36:30] Craig Asano: And thanks for breaking it down with levers and all the product details. And just, I think the use cases help, because everybody feels the pinch, like you're saying, that the costs are expensive. It doesn't matter your situation. And I really like the idea that there's no shame. it's Financial services like that, people, sharing their files, sharing their credit information they, they, they worry, they fear. But the worst fears could be alleviated with some of these new products, and they're definitely worth looking at as an option. So one Yeah.

I wondered as you're talking, are you operating nationally or just here in Ontario today?

 

[00:37:11] Shael Weinreb: So right now, we're operating only in Ontario. I would say that our primary focus is the GTA. We have made exceptions outside of the GTA. We're starting to look actually out west as a consideration. nothing's been formalized yet, but there's some opportunities that are starting to percolate out west, so that's a consideration for us, but the goal is eventually to become national, for sure. At the end of the day, there is going to be so much innovation in this space, because it's gotten to a point where our lending practices are so rigid and so conservative, and it's not a bad thing in some cases.

Like when they did the stress tests back in 2008 when you sort of had the whole financial crisis and they stress tested all the banks in the US versus the way that we stress test here with our deposits and whatever. Like, I think our banks back in 2008 proved to be on stable financial footing.

I think what it proved in the US is that many banks were not on the stable financial footing. So I think, presumably, Canadian banks have been able to maintain that by being very selective with who they work with. And so, there has to be a lot of innovation, because there's tens of billions. Across the country, there's hundreds of billions, but in Ontario, there's tens of billions of dollars of people that are sitting on equity in their homes.

And when they look at their bank accounts, in some cases they're on overdraft, or in some cases, they're living paycheck-to-paycheck, or in some cases, they're racking up debt, or whatever have you. And, as we all know, you can't swipe your house when paying for groceries.

So, I'm starting to see more innovation now in the space, and I think what you're going to see is even more, because I think the days of just lending as we know it, there's a place for that, there's no question, but there's certainly a real opportunity for a lot of disruption in this space to allow homeowners different ways or alternative scenarios to really take advantage of the equity that they've built up in their house. and we obviously think that we're a great way to be able to do that, but over the coming years, you're going to see a lot more innovation in the space. And I welcome it.

From a personal perspective with my dad and other people that are struggling, there should be more innovation. It shouldn't just be about lending and collecting interest.

There should be a lot of different ways and some kind of interesting and smart ways for people to take money out from their home, and the US is doing it, and we're really proud, in our view, to be at sort of the front lines in respect to this space, and we expect to be able to help thousands and thousands of people across this country over the coming years.

 

[00:39:48] Craig Asano: No, I think it's fantastic. Like, just touching upon this idea of innovation in a category, and from what you're seeing right on that front line, over the next three to five years, where do you see it going? And is is it product structuring? Is it more partnerships, more capital being provided? Is it some type of regulatory changes in the lending sector, or is or is it all the technology? Are we going to have an AI come in and do everything for us like, what do you see? what is on your mind?

 

[00:40:22] Shael Weinreb: Yeah, like, I think it's sort of a combination of things that you just mentioned, for sure. I don't see banks necessarily pulling back in terms of their lending practices. Like, I just don't see that happening, so I think banks are going to be what they're going to be. I think it's more about sort of entrepreneurialism and people trying to get innovative in the space and really introduce new categories that are maybe being done around other parts of the world, and really using that as inspiration to bring it to Canada and maybe ways that have just never even been thought of before.

But I think there's a real opportunity for smart people who like this space and recognize that there's a real need for it, to start examining areas for people to take on that, you know, to take on sort of new initiatives to access that equity.

People should have choice, people should really have choice, and I think that's one of the great things about a free marketplace, that people should have choice. And so I'm really looking forward to seeing what's coming. I'm starting to see it already.

There's a credit card that certain people can qualify for, and I won't even hurt my business by saying this, but regardless I think there's a credit card now that people can qualify for people that are 55 and older where it's a prepaid credit card for $100,000 or something like that, and you can use it when you go out, and you can buy things on this credit card, and naturally, you just draw down on the balance as you go. But the interesting component to it is that they register a mortgage against your property as security for that credit card.

And so, as security for that credit card, because there's a mortgage, the interest rate comes down substantially.

So you still pay interest, but instead of paying 20%, you're now paying 7%, because the credit card company has a mortgage on your property, so that if you default or it doesn't get paid, theoretically, they have the rights and remedies that any mortgage holder would have. But now there's a new credit card that you can take out and, like I said, instead of 20%, you're now only paying 6%. So it functions like a credit card.

 

[00:42:33] Craig Asano: Yeah.

 

[00:42:34] Shael Weinreb: So it's interesting. There's other things that I'm starting to hear about, so I'm, I'm really excited to see what happens in this space, because I think Canadians are deserving of as much choice as possible, and let them decide what's best for them.

 

[00:42:43] Craig Asano: Absolutely. It's really based on need, and it's going to drive that entrepreneurial innovation, like, like you're talking about. From your founder's perspective and, we're getting here to the nitty gritty part of the podcast, I'd say because we've heard a lot. I think it's fantastic. But from your perspective, what does success look like for HEQ, maybe one or three years from now from what you've experienced in, in one year, some, some great milestones being on that front line? So where do you see success? How do you define it for HEQ in the future?

 

[00:43:21] Shael Weinreb: Honestly, I just define it as being able to help people. Like, I'm not looking at it as, in terms of, like, dollars and cents. I'm looking at it as an ability to scale, and really to become integrated into the fabric of home equity choices. Like, right now, we're sort of, like, on the outside looking in. We're certainly not part of the mainstream right now, but ultimately, I think all we're looking for is to be considered as an alternative to some of the other products out there. So, we want to be in the discussion, and I think we're working like hell to be part of the discussion.

And so, without a massive marketing budget and a massive team, we really have to get creative in terms of how we get the word out there as best as possible. So that, to me, is really success, that in two, three years from now, somebody says, "Oh, a HESA?

I've heard of that," or, "Oh, the Home Equity Partners? I've, I've heard of them. They seem to be doing really good work," or, "I went on their website, and I saw seven testimonials from homeowners who really explained why the product was particularly helpful to them, and how we solved some of their problems." That, to me, is really what success looks like.

 

[00:44:26] Craig Asano: Yeah, fantastic, and we'll at NCFA here, we'll do our best to play a small part in educating folks, and maybe driving some traffic to those that have a real need. So, you're, you're doing great work. So, I guess this brings us to the part of the podcast where we call it rapid fire questions. So, we're not looking for long answers. We're talking one or two, two words here. So I think the idea is just to kind of catch you off guard a little bit with some of these questions, and see how you respond.

 

[00:45:00] Shael Weinreb: Sure.

 

[00:45:00] Craig Asano: Are you ready for those?

 

[00:45:01] Shael Weinreb: Absolutely.

 

[00:45:02] Craig Asano: Okay.

 

[00:45:03] Shael Weinreb: Bring it on.

 

[00:45:03] Craig Asano: I've got them written down here. So, what's one belief that you have about money or homeownership that you think people would disagree with?

 

[00:45:15] Shael Weinreb: That it's a right.

 

[00:45:18] Craig Asano: That's a right? What?

 

[00:45:20] Shael Weinreb: That it's a right, that, like, homeownership, I guess, what I'm trying to say is, like I'm trying to stick it to, like, one word or whatever, or two words, but that it's a right. It's, in my view, people see homeownership as this right that they should have as a citizen of this country. I think it's something that more and more is not automatic. It's something that happens to certain people, but you're starting to see a lot more rental communities pop up.

And I think when you really look at the numbers, depending on the stock market as an example versus homeownership, in many ways, like the S&P has outperformed home prices over the last number of years. So, I guess, one, homeownership is not necessarily an automatic right. It's not something that you're entitled to. It's something that you have to work towards.

And then, number two is, people I think, sometimes are under this mistaken belief that, "If I buy a house and pay down my mortgage, that by the time I retire, I'm going to be okay, and that I can always use my house as, like, a piggy bank." In some cases, there might be better investment opportunities. You might be better off renting and putting your money elsewhere. Owning a home and maintaining a home, and with all the expenses and insurance and property taxes and headaches, it's not for everybody. So, I think before you really think about getting into home, you have to make sure it's right for you.

 

[00:46:50] Craig Asano: It's the scary truth. Going to keep it to homes, but okay. That was more than two.

 

[00:47:00] Shael Weinreb: Sorry, that was a bit longer than you would have wanted. I apologize.

 

[00:47:04] Craig Asano: So, moving on. What's something that you learned in your first year of building HEQ that you did not expect to happen?

 

[00:47:09] Shael Weinreb: Honestly, I didn't expect resistance in any way. I thought investors would gravitate to it immediately, and once we announced it, I thought homeowners would be lining up around the corner for this product. But as I've learned, it doesn't really happen that way. Anything new, any change seems to be a barrier, and so it requires education.

 

[00:47:31] Craig Asano: That's absolutely critical. So good answer. So, what's a decision that you've made as a founder that turned out to be better than you thought?

 

[00:47:43] Shael Weinreb: I was honestly scared of the pressure a little bit of having to grow something from scratch, and really be primarily responsible for introducing this new category in the home equity space. But what I discovered is I actually welcome the pressure. I really do. I welcome the pressure, I welcome the challenge, and I welcome the chance every day to wake up and really try to bring this product to as many people as possible. And are there setbacks along the way? Absolutely. Do I enjoy and am I welcoming the pressure and the challenge more than I thought I would? Absolutely.

So that's been a really positive experience that I didn't really necessarily expect. But overall, it's been, it's been a really positive experience.

 

[00:48:30] Craig Asano: Fantastic. Last rapid fire question. What's a piece of advice that you'd give to someone who feels house rich, but cash constrained?

 

[00:48:41] Shael Weinreb: Right. That there's options. And I think if you look deep enough, and especially with this new product that we're offering, there's lots of options out there, and you don't have to feel stuck. There are a lot of different sort of ways that you can go about it. But I think it's important to speak to people. Doing nothing is the worst option. Staying stuck and doing nothing and feeling paralyzed is the worst thing that you can do. Speak to a financial advisor. Speak to your accountant. Speak to friends, speak to family. Spend some time on the internet. Use ChatGPT or Claude, or whatever the latest AI tool is.

But to just do nothing, I think is really doing yourself a disservice. And I think it's important that you put some effort in to try and figure out ways that you can unlock it. Because you're starting to see way more options in the market, and I think there's a solution for most problems.

 

[00:49:32] Craig Asano: No, that's right. Keeping your head in the sand is not a solution to a very painful problem. I mean, the pressure that folks have with debt and rising costs, it just continues to grow. And homeownership, as you've alluded to several times, it can become not just costly, but complicated. So you have to always be in market, take a look what's out there in between sort of government doing their role, new ventures who are creating these new categories, new products, like yourself, they have their part. And the incumbent institutions for their type of customer, they have their own way to participate.

So hopefully collectively we'll all be getting through this together. But,

 

[00:50:16] Shael Weinreb: Absolutely.

 

[00:50:18] Craig Asano: No, that's fantastic. I just wanted to as we move into closing here, like if anyone wants to get in touch with you, Shael how do they? Do you have an email? Like what's the website? Can you Whether they're an investor, whether they're a homeowner, or someone who just wants to talk to you about the innovation side, how do, how do people contact you?

 

[00:50:36] Shael Weinreb: Yeah, I appreciate you asking that. So our website is www.theheqpartners.com. I think we have a general email inbox, which is info@theheqpartners.com. There's also a submit question component to our website. But I can be reached anytime at sweinreb@theheqpartners.com. And I'm around for any questions from homeowners. I'm always available to chat, and just kind of walk through different scenarios and do whatever I can to help. That's really my goal.

 

[00:51:21] Craig Asano: And if you don't mind, we'll make sure those details are in the transcript and show notes.

 

[00:51:28] Shael Weinreb: Thank you.

 

[00:51:30] Craig Asano: That's fantastic. So if anyone has any questions about home equity sharing, the HESA agreement, or what's happening in terms of these new options in the market, you really have to talk to HEQ Partners. This is Shael Weinreb. So Shael, thanks so much for joining me today, sitting down, sharing your valuable time, your knowledge, expertise. I thought it was fantastic. I learned a lot. I'm sure a lot of our listeners have too. So really appreciate your time, and wish you all the best in what you're doing.

Maybe we'll sit down for one of those more detailed spreadsheet webinar versions of the nitty gritty with the percentages and the cost structures. But I think you laid it out very transparently and provided a lot of education. Enough for people to make the decision, "Let's go talk to Shael." So that's fantastic. So for everyone else, that's going to be a wrap.

If you're new to Fintech Fridays, just want to encourage you to check out some of our incredible past episodes, because I think you'll be surprised with what you find. We look forward to seeing you next Friday for another episode of Fintech Fridays. So Shael, since this will be going out tomorrow, on Friday, I want to wish you a great weekend. And again, have best of luck in the coming years.

 

[00:52:49] Shael Weinreb: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And thank you for having me again.

 

Outro : you've been listening to Fintech Fridays brought to you by NCFA and partners. Tune in weekly for the latest fintech Friday podcast by subscribing to this channel. The National crowdfunding and Fintech Association of Canada is a non-profit actively engaged with social and investment fintech sectors around the globe and provide education research industry stewardship services and networking opportunities to thousands of members and subscribers. For more information please visit ncfacanada.org.

 

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