About this episode:

On this episode, show host Anna Niemira sits down with guest David Lucatch of Liquid Avatar Technologies Inc. They discuss the ins and outs of digital identity and it's transformative potential for both consumers and businesses.  Enjoy!

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Fintech Friday Transcript of Episode 54: David Lucatch of Liquid Avatar Technologies Inc.

Intro: Welcome to fintech Friday's a weekly podcast brought to you by the National Crowdfunding and Fintech Association of Canada and partners. Covering all things fintech, blockchain, AI and alternative finance.

Anna Niemira: [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the NCFA Canada summer edition of the Fintech Fridays Podcast. NCFA is a leading community-based FinTech and crowdfunding association driven to advance innovation finance sectors. This is Anna Niemira. I am today's podcast host. Our podcast introduces remarkable people from the FinTech community and showcases industry trends and developments. You can always refer to the past episodes by visiting our website to connect with our incredible guests and their stories. Thank you so much for tuning in to today's podcast. We are thrilled to welcome our guest, David Lucatch of Liquid Avatar Technologies, which is a high-quality, digital, image-based Personal Passport containing public and securely managed private information that users can choose to share when they want and include only the information they want simply by sharing their image. David, great to have you here to discuss, especially nowadays, an engaging topic.

David Lucatch: [00:01:21] Thank you. And it's a pleasure to be here.

Anna Niemira: [00:01:24] Great to have you here once again. Let's talk a bit about digital identity. It's a little bit controversial topic, and I'm sure that our listeners would like to know a little bit more about it. What is a digital identity and how it is different from what we have right now?

David Lucatch: [00:01:48] Well, it's a good question. And I don't know that I would qualify as controversial, but I would try to qualify as innovative. Digital identity is really taking the paper or electronic data that you have now that represents yourself and it could be as something as a paper-based or card-based doing something like your driver's license and electronic could be a username and password and taking those to a digital state where, you know, we're using blockchain technology to ensure that you have absolute control over its use and functionality.

Anna Niemira: [00:02:29] Well, recently, during the last few months, we've been talking, media was talking about cyberattacks, there were some issues. So, when we have everything digitally that possibly can represent some danger for us, that our data can be stolen. So what is the level of security pertaining to our data stored digitally?

David Lucatch: [00:02:55] Well, again, I mentioned something a minute ago and that, again, is a really good question. The key behind security is, how does someone access the data and as we found, unfortunately, you know, organizations were able to find on the dark web CRA username and passwords. So what we've done is installed biometrics. So, for you to manage to control your digital identity in your digital credentials are verifiable credentials. We use techniques that require you to identify yourself biometrically. And where we start with that is with facial recognition. Now, one would argue, well, you know, we could use a fingerprint, we could use a retina and we could use all these different tools. But when we're verifying someone's identity, the easiest thing to start with is something that is easily recognizable. And there's very few pieces of identity that you have that have your fingerprint or your retina or anything else. But there is identity documentation that you have that has your picture on it. So, when we start with the know the customer process, know your customer process or KYC, and identifying an individual so that they can store, manage, and control digital identity, we start with the basics and with a piece of identity that will have an image on them that we can cross-reference. And then we store a digital map of your face.

Anna Niemira: [00:04:21] Well, we know that KYC, it's rather a complicated process. And this is the issue a lot of companies are dealing with, and individuals, every single time you're going somewhere, you have to show your I.D. It's it's troublesome. You have to pull a bunch of papers to prove your identity. So what are the exact user's benefits from holding a digital ID versus a traditional one?

David Lucatch: [00:04:52] Well, first of all, it's there's a lot of convenience. You know, we use our mobile phone for everything, so it means we don't have to carry everything everywhere. Now, I want to be clear about this. We don't store data on the phone. We are cloud-based. And so at the end of the day, you know, everything is in the cloud. So your phone is sort of the gateway to your phone is lost, stolen or compromised, we're not going to end up, you know, having data compromised because your phone was lost or stolen. But what are the benefits to a user is very simple that they have control over the data in a way that they've never had control before. Let me use an example for, let's say, a young person who walks in and wants to buy something that is age-restricted. They generally have to show a piece of identity that has their image on it and their name and all their usually their address and usually, you know, is a driver's license. And that's too much information to show for a verification of age where a digital credential would pass back and forth between the individual and the organization wishing to verify that and the user could only provide at that time the fact that they were over, for example, in the province of Ontario, they were 19 or over. And so it really makes data more controllable by the individual. We don't have to give out pieces of information that are not relevant to a transaction. It also makes it easier for an organization to ensure that the people that they are engaging with are who they say they were. And we can take that in, which I'm sure you'll ask questions about, but from a business standpoint, it means I'm only dealing with real people now. I'm not dealing with fake people, you know, multiple personalities or multiple usernames and, you know, bots. So there's a lot of value in the equation and a lot of convenience and it would mean that I don't have to remember any of my passwords anymore. So I don't know how many passwords you have, but I have a lot of passwords. And remembering them or using a system to control them can be dangerous. If I could just use my biometrics in conjunction with a verifiable credential, it would make it so much simpler to get into, for argument's sake, my bank account.

Anna Niemira: [00:07:16] Yes. So, is this technology going to make our world much more organized?

David Lucatch: [00:07:25] I think I think organized is one. It's going to make it more convenient, it's going to be easier and faster and if used properly by all parties, it will make it safer as well. You know, there are many regulations around the world, starting in Europe with something called GDPR, General Data Protection Regulation that has changed the way that we deal with data even around the world because many countries have adopted the basic principles and are enhancing those principles of GDPR. California has done that, Canada is looking at it with the updates in PIPEDA. So identity is changing and we've now got to download that requirement to manage that data, the consumer, or the user. So we're stepping in, we're helping the consumer by providing them tools and services that allow them to better manage to control that identity. But we don't own it. We don't rent it. We don't sell it. It's all under the control of the user.

Anna Niemira: [00:08:27] Yes. Well, there's one thing certain in life, and it has been proved true, throughout the centuries, that the only constant is change. So naturally, we are changing how we deal with our ID as well and how we use it. So how exactly can we manage our digital ID?

David Lucatch: [00:08:51] Well, like wallet for currency or for other pieces of identity. And I'm going to try and make it very easy. If I ask you to go into, you know, your wallet or for some people a satchel or a purse or whatever the case may be, you're going to have ID, you're likely going to have some cash or change on you, whatever it is, you're going to have different things that you already control. And so the process is effectively the same. Instead of having it in a conventional wallet, you know, you might have a wallet for your identity and you might have a wallet for your money or change or whatever the case would be. You're also going to have a wallet for your identity, and that'll be an electronic wallet in which you can control various aspects of your data. Now, some of us are already used to doing that with things like Apple Pay and Google Pay. But those are two things. One, those are edge-based. So they sit on on a phone. And two, there is a third party that controls them. Apple or Google has the right to tell you what can go in those what can't go in them. And they have the right to manage a lot of the data that goes that's being dealt with in there in. In our system you manage and control all of that. We only provide the tools for you to do that. So it is a completely self-sovereign identity. It is independent and independently managed. And so you will have a wallet which your employer might give you a credential similar to the card that you might use to enter a facility. But now it'll be a digital credential that sits in a wallet that is accessible by your phone. It might be your driver's license, it might be your student identity. It might be a bus pass or transport pass. There are so many different things that we use, again, username and passwords that this will be a wallet which you control and we provide biometric control that you control with your face and other aspects that allow you to manage all your identity in a very simple and easy manner.

Anna Niemira: [00:10:56] Hmm. Well, that's, actually, that's fantastic. That's definitely very easy to use and very convenient. So what is that what is the implementation process?

David Lucatch: [00:11:07] Well, right now, users, and I want to stress that there are three parties in this process. There is a holder or someone who as an individual holds all their credentials. There is an author or issuer, an organization that issues those credentials. And so like a bank or an employer or a government. And then there are what we call verifiers and verifiers are those that want to make sure that the information you're providing or for to give you to verify your identity, your access, or your qualifications are correct. And I'll talk about something for a moment as I go through the implementation process but we call those three organizations the holder, the issuer, and the verifier part of what we call a trust triangle. And a very interesting but simple to understand the use case of the trust triangle, a process that is not digital identity, but one that we all deal with on a regular basis is if I walked into a grocery store and I filled my basket with goods and I walked a walk to the checkout, I'd likely use, in most cases debit or credit. And when I swipe, tap or insert my card, I'm now creating a relationship as a holder of that card with the supermarket, which is trying to verify my card, and my bank, which is the issue of my card, so we're used to doing this every day. And once I start that process, the verifier asks if I want to continue with it. The bank verifies it and then says, yep, David has the money or David has the credit in which to proceed with this transaction. But hold on a second. We just want to make sure it's David, so, David, can you enter your pin so that we do all of that and then I get my groceries and I walk out of the store in the transaction is completed and it's gone. Digital identity works the same way except the challenge might be that I'm asked to prove with my face that I am who I say I am. So it's a very similar process to what we're using today. So the implementation process follows that. So the government, or like the Ontario government is proposing that by the end of the year, the issue, some type of digital identity. BC is working on it or Quebec is already started with QR codes on covid credentials. There are lots of different organizations that are starting to issue digital credentials. And you'll see the implementation process will be that the issuer will issue a credential. The holder will hold that credential in their wallet, and they will go to locations where they need to be verified. And we're developing an onboarding process not just for the consumer, but both for the the author, those organizations that want to author credentials. So we SAS model for business and we're working also on the verification process that SAS business model as well, or software as a service where verifiers will be able to easily verify a digital credential. But it is still fairly early days. And if you think about an example, as Tesla builds more and more cars, they're putting in more and more charging stations. So you're the infrastructure is going to take on a life of its own and build very quickly because, you know, up to now digital identity or identity on the Internet, it's been a very, very large challenge.

Anna Niemira: [00:14:23] Right, since you actually mentioned the timing - so that is still developing and it's still growing for further implementation. So how far away we are from the general worldwide implementation of digital identification?

David Lucatch: [00:14:42] Well, Australia is already issuing digital birth certificates. So, you know, we think of ourselves, the North American, a bit of a bubble, but we are not leaving this for those that are old enough to remember, you know, for years, you could buy a can of pop or soda, depending on how you phrase it, in a vending machine using your phone in Europe and in Asia but you can't do it in North America. So everybody's trying to adapt quite quickly because if you think about the value proposition to business and the value proposition of businesses is let's look at the credit card and identity fraud industry that globally is a 30 billion dollar industry. In North America alone, it's about 12 billion dollars. Now, I can use my card online. I could give my daughter my card and she could use it online. So it doesn't take a lot of sophistication to use someone else's card. And so, you know, there's very little information you need to know about the person in the car to to be able to use it. But what if I said to you, every time you use the card over a certain limit, even in e-commerce, you know, the organization, the issuer would ping you to ensure with your face that this is your card. I mean, if the value proposition of business is is so immense, it's so immense. But until recently, technology didn't exist. So we're seeing everywhere, especially, you know, we talk about, you know, covid credentials. And there was a survey that just came up by travel week that showed that a significant I think it was well over 80 percent of respondents agreed that if necessary, willingly and if necessary, they would easily use a vaccination passport. So one of one of the primary opportunities for digital identity is creating digital identity in conjunction with test results or vaccine results so that everybody can easily travel again. And so there is this movement very quickly to get this onboard and work with it so we can get industry and lives back to normal.

Anna Niemira: [00:16:47] So when we talking about the businesses and when we are talking about the advantages for the businesses, often, it pertains to making money. So how those businesses, the implementation of the digital I.D. process is going to be beneficial for these companies when are we talking about modern monetary advantages?

David Lucatch: [00:17:17] That is a great question. So is it revenue-driven? Is it cost savings driven? Is it a bottom line? So I'm going to focus on the bottom line. So you know, how businesses make more money. So I think we would agree that if people could freely travel again, the travel industry would benefit from that in all facets. The hospitality industry would benefit, the entertainment industry would benefit. For those organizations to make more money, they're going to have to implement controls that are going to ensure that people are safe to enter a facility. And to do so, we have a system that is very, very nominal costing. It's zero cost for the consumer. We never charge a consumer for any of our technology. Our business partners have to for that that that cost. And it becomes a revenue generator for us. But on the business side, we've got processes that allow even small restaurants and organizations to eventually be able to implement this, so that they can get back to making more money. The world has changed and we have to change with it. So we're all about getting people back to normal and kick-starting the economy so that people can make money from the services that they currently offer or did offer.

Anna Niemira: [00:18:38] Right, so we're talking about, most right now, using for mobility and operability as well that, you know, the businesses can operate and also individuals can simply use it for easy transition and going to places and they have proof of vaccination, they have proof of the I.D. and the entire process, which right now seems to be very complicated, eases up. So that's what it is.

David Lucatch: [00:19:08] Well, that's one example. I think that's an easy example for people to embrace. But I think for the for for for the payment industry, it is a massive advantage because of the networks because, you know, fraud would diminish. So it's about identity. And we look at three different things. It's about identity, access, and qualifications. So for identity, where identity is required, let's say, you know, let's take a cannabis retailer. Cannabis retailer is under strict guidelines to make sure that they sell only to people who are above age that has a certain qualification and age qualification so that their business can be in jeopardy if they don't follow those rules and there are only as strong as the weakest link. So what happens when a clerk decides I'll just sell it anyways and inspectors there and they get caught? They can lose the right to do business. But if it was required in the transaction process that you verify age and use digital identity, that would be another solution to keep businesses on the road. But I think of it this way. If you think about identity, access, and qualification and a very simple example is a doctor enters a hospital to check-in. They provide their digital credential for their identity, verifies that they are who they say they are, they that their access qualification is already there, that they have privileges in that hospital and their qualification is up to date and they can perform surgery in that hospital. So there are lots of different opportunities within a number of different sectors. But I think that the because it's self-sovereignty, because it's blockchain based and because it's trusted, or trustless, I'm sorry, not trusted, but trustless this will implement very quickly because it hasn't existed before and it makes our entire world safer and more efficient.

Anna Niemira: [00:21:05] Right, so there's definitely additional value creation. So we are addressing also legal issues here, administration issues, academic issues. So practically everything can be, any aspect of our life, can be in our digital identity and it can be addressed all the time. But at the same time, is it not too much information accumulated in one spot?

David Lucatch: [00:21:32] Actually, it's completely decentralized. I would argue the contrary. So right now, corporations know everything about us because they own all the data. They own all the identity information. You know, I walk in somewhere and they want all my information about me before I do something. They may only need a small sliver of my information and they might only need it temporarily to create to complete a transaction. So I think it's completely the opposite. All these systems are designed to ensure that me, as the owner of my data, I am in control of that. I am in control of all my information. I only provide certain information to complete a transaction, not to pass data, but to complete a transaction. So a good example of that would be the grocery store never keeps my pin. They don't know my pin, but I need to provide that piece of information to complete the transaction. So what if that pin for that particular transaction was an age verification or an access verification that I am entitled to be able to come in here? It doesn't mean that that a facility needs to keep that information. They've just verified that that information is true. So I would argue vehemently that this provides the the ecosystem with less data and less control over me and more control in my hands.

Anna Niemira: [00:22:55] So you mentioned that there are biometrics and facial recognition used for using digital identification. And then we have to share it with businesses when we're doing certain transactions. Does it not represent the danger that we are sharing the information with them? Or, is the system working in the way that we are still holding this completely and we are just using this for the confirmation with other companies, getting that confirmation without getting our biometrics out or our facial recognition information, or any other data?

David Lucatch: [00:23:34] It's the latter. It's the fact that they never get that information. It is again, like a pin. It's the challenge. It's the answer to the challenge. So if, you know, if we don't add to a verification process, a challenge and it could be authenticator, doesn't have to be biometrics. There are other opportunities as well. One-time passwords. There's lots of different situations. But we don't add that. We're not adding an additional level of security. So, again, when you are typing in your pin unless somebody is standing in front of you looking at it or copying it, nobody gets your pin. So facial recognition is a map, not your picture, but the map behind facial recognition is a way to create a verification, just like a fingerprint that you use or a thumbprint use on a phone. We won't go into phone technology, but, you know, we're not we're not storing that for the purposes that map for the purposes of identification. We're storing, using it for the purposes of verification.

Anna Niemira: [00:24:42] So this is actually going to be a lot of changes in regards to the business environment as well because the businesses will have to embrace consumers' rights to manage and control their identity, the personal information. So how businesses can embrace it?

David Lucatch: [00:25:02] Well, I'm going to go back to a story. And it's quite a few years ago. So it's almost 25 years ago. It's probably twenty-three, twenty-four. So my team in the late 90s, I led a team that actually worked with the data providers, Visa, MasterCard, and Canadian banks to develop the way that people type in their credit card online. And it didn't exist before that. Somebody had to invent it and I like to say I think our team was the ones that did it. And for Canada. So before that, no one ever shopped online. So people were telling me left, right, and center, no one is ever going to shop online. I don't think we would say the same thing today. You know, we weren't going to register for courses online. I talked to the University of Toronto, which is my alma mater, in two thousand and eight, 2009, about doing digital lectures online and they basically said no one is ever going to do digital lectures online. So we, as you said, the only constant is change and so I think this is a process that creates value, it gets people back to work, back to play, back to travel. So I think everybody wants to find the fastest route to that and because it is built on open standards and it is going to be effectively affordable to everyone. I mean, we're working on situations with our competitors in this field. What if someone doesn't have a digital identity? How are they going to be able to do things that those with digital identity. So inclusion. But frankly, the Internet was not fast enough. It wasn't technologically developed enough. And the technology around it to ensure that identity was a process, we sort of threw that out the way. Now that it's coming full force, I think we're going to have to reckon our ability to deal with it very quickly.

Anna Niemira: [00:27:05] Yes, you brought actually a very good issue because, in the Fintech, in general, there is this division between banked and unbanked. And also, that seems to me, that the same is important also for digital identity as well. When we're talking about a global aspect to it. They are still the regions in the world that have trouble accessing the Internet. However, most the people nowadays have phones. So if we can implement digital I.D., then most likely that can be also used in those different regions in the world and you can expand to different geographical regions, which right now are limited when it comes to access to bank or some businesses or some other industries as well.

David Lucatch: [00:28:04] I agree. If you look at we if we look at the Internet today, we look at services are available to one hundred percent of the addressable to 100 percent of the online market. And the first one we would say is, is search. I think everyone online uses search, in one form or another. You pick the search engine that you like and you generally, at one point in time during the day, are looking for something. We all use electronic communications. We're doing that right now. We're doing a podcast, you know, over electronic means, over the Internet. You know we all use a browser. I don't think anyone doesn't use a browser. There are very few that might not. But I think everyone uses browsers. So I think those three services are addressable to one hundred percent of the market. Our belief and obviously everyone has to do their own due diligence and anything they're doing. But our belief is that digital identity is addressable to 100 percent of the market because everyone online is a person and young old will eventually have to do identity. And we're even putting in safeguards. We're building new technologies that will allow parents to be able to create, you know, data guardianship for their for their children. And in the event of a challenge or problem or situation that an individual wants to be able to manage, they can have a second or signed somebody who could get into their digital identity in the event that there was an issue or unfortunately, a demise, because we don't want necessarily our social media profiles living on forever. And we do want to be able to get into some of our bank accounts of someone to get into bank accounts if necessary. But again, they would have to qualify. They would have to provide biometrics. There's a whole process, but they have their own digital identity to be able to cross-reference. But at the end of the day, I think this is an inclusive process that covers not only North America, which covers the online population, representing about 90 percent of the people in North America, but it covers over five billion people worldwide.

Anna Niemira: [00:30:11] Right. So in consideration that all this information is going to be stored on our mobiles, at least for now.

David Lucatch: [00:30:19] No, no, it's not stored on your mobile.

Anna Niemira: [00:30:22] It's also the cloud. That's right. Let me rephrase that. We are using our mobiles to access the cloud and then provide our information. When will we need eventually some different equipment to do it, or for the expansion and to facilitate also easier usability, or will phone always represent that tool we need to access our digital ID?

David Lucatch: [00:30:55] Well, let me be clear. It's any Internet-enabled device that has a camera on it. So would be a laptop, a tablet, a mobile phone, and so as foreign factors and technologies become more pervasive, the way to access your information will become more engaging as well. So, you know, we've heard stories of virtual reality. We're already working with augmented reality. So, you know, as technology becomes more intriguing, faster, better digital identity will keep up with that because it's the credential behind who you are, not what you use to prove who you are.

Anna Niemira: [00:31:39] Right. So, definitely, in consideration of what has happened in 2020, we are looking for different solutions for urgent issues that we have at hand. And definitely, the digital I.D. provides a venue for us to explore it and get back on track, as you said, back to normal and start our lives once again from a different perspective. But how you can see this develop and expand in the future? Because we are addressing current issues, but then we have five, ten years from now. So in your opinion, how this can expand and help us in our lives, help us when it comes to businesses? What is your point of view about it?

David Lucatch: [00:32:34] Well, obviously, I'm a big proponent of it. And we're already looking, you know, down the road at where virtual reality comes in play, the metaverse comes in play, how this will open up new doors for the medical industry, the educational industry, the information services, e-commerce, gaming, whether it's e-sports or other types of games. So we travel. There are so many avenues for us to explore. What we're really focused on today is creating baseline products that a user can expand with. So based on the technology that's available today, we're building our solutions to manage the infrastructure that is available today. But we know that that that access to credentials will change. So we're not talking about changing necessarily the credential. So a driver's license has existed for, I would say probably 100 years. Its form may have changed slightly, might have gone from paper to plastic and then now to electronic and digital. But the process of having a driver's license has never changed. So we have to start with the baseline credentials and then work around how they will be implemented, presented, or how they will be issued or authored and verified, and how the user will or the holder will store them. So, we're again, we go back to that triangle between the holder, the issuer, and the verifier. And we're really focused on providing tools and services for each one of those parties and expanding the opportunities as their infrastructure expands.

Anna Niemira: [00:34:22] Right, so we're not changing the actual process, we just changing how we presenting that, right? So, as you mentioned, with the driver's license, the document stays as it was. It represents the same value and the point of identification, except how it is being presented. That it's going to be much more convenient and available for us and the businesses way.

David Lucatch: [00:34:54] I agree, 100 percent agree. You know, we businesses and individuals are used to change again. You know, a few short years ago, you couldn't take courses online. Now not only can take courses online between but you can take exams online. When we took our company public last year, in 2020, we've done it a number of times with other organizations in the past. You'd have to go into a lawyer's office and you'd have to sign everything. And they are all these folders. We did everything remotely using DocuSign. So so now that is a recognized way of signing documentation, so we're changing. What we have to do is, is work with that change to make it better for us and this is the really hard part. We're not only going to see changes in the way we do things, but we're going to see changes in responsibility. I'm going to be responsible for some of my data. And there are other companies out there that are giving users value propositions to partner with them, for them to sell the data and the user to get money from the use of the data. So there's lots of new industries being born out of this and a lot of new companies. And we believe based on our positioning and our, you know, acumen and our team, which is a phenomenal team, that that we hopefully have a leadership position in this industry.

Anna Niemira: [00:36:23] So, digital ID is one thing. The entire infrastructure about it, what it can be done with it in the future, and how it can go towards different industries, the possibilities we don't even know about right now. We cannot pinpoint it at the moment. It's just truly exponential.

David Lucatch: [00:36:45] I agree. There are many opportunities, again, not just for the holder of the credentials, but for the authorization, or the authoring of an issuing of credentials, and certainly within the verification of credentials. I think it will make, you know, it will make it easier for us to do things in more advantageous for us to engage in certain pieces or certain opportunities without having to give away all our rights or all our data.

Anna Niemira: [00:37:11] Yes. So at this moment, since we are rushing to have everything implemented right now and start with a digital identification, what is the most urgent issue that this industry needs to resolve to have this truly pushed forward and implemented on the global scale?

David Lucatch: [00:37:37] Travel. I think the first one will be travel and travel is driven by health and health records. So, I think the travel industry is probably, and the hospitality industry as well. So, you know, again, I could go on and on and on on this. But if I take the travel and hospitality industry, I think they can benefit the most initially from digital identity to ensure that users are safe to enter a facility, safe to travel, give comfort to others. So it's not just about my own safety, my own value, but it's the people around me. If I'm confident that the people on a bus or on a plane are safe to be there, then it'll increase my opportunity to want to do those things, or a restaurant, or a public event. So it's really about creating safety awareness. And I think the travel in the hospitality industry can be leaders in this this space.

Anna Niemira: [00:38:38] So hopefully the current world health issues will go away, but at the same time, we hope for the digital ID to stay because we have full control as individuals. It's easy to use, has really a lot of possibilities and it definitely eases up our lives. Particularly, we are living in a very busy world right now and we want to move and meet and be mobile, so digital ID actually gives us an access to travel, to do financial things and many other aspects of life, just all under one umbrella.

David Lucatch: [00:39:25] Yeah, I believe so. I think it's really important that we don't look at this as as a detriment to our ability to do things, but, you know, helps us open up new frontiers and gives us as individuals control over the data that has been for many years controlled by others. So it's an empowerment strategy. And it's one that hopefully consumers and again, issuers and verifiers will embrace. We're seeing that every day. I mean, every day we're seeing, you know, covid passports or vaccination passports. And we're seeing new opportunities for people to ditch the password or do this or do that. And so it's already underway. So, you know, sort of the train has left the station. It's just we've got to make sure everybody's onboard where the train is leaving the station. We've got to make sure everybody's onboard would be a better way for it.

Anna Niemira: [00:40:25] Yes. You used the word empowerment. And I really like that word. It just gives us additional possibilities and empowers us, as users, as well. And on that positive note, of the empowering note, I would like to thank you for joining us for today's podcast. I truly appreciate you sharing all the information and giving us details, how it works, how it can be used, and whatever questions people might have, we will be more than happy to hear it. And also as the company, will you be able to provide the information people can use it, visit Liquid Avatar, the website, correct?

David Lucatch: [00:41:16] Yeah, it's www.liquidavatartechnologies.com and they can fill out a contact sheet or, you know, they can reach out to me directly. And I'd be happy to speak to anybody who has any inquiries.

Anna Niemira: [00:41:32] So let's keep our fingers crossed that everything goes well, that everything is being implemented fast enough for us to start our lives as we had before it and enjoy them, but at the same time with new perspectives.

David Lucatch: [00:41:50] Absolutely, and it was a real pleasure being here today Anna and I thank you so much.

Anna Niemira: [00:41:54] Thank you so much. And ladies and gentlemen, that's a wrap. On behalf of the Fintech Friday's podcast we would like to thank David Lucatch of Liquid Avatar Technologies for joining us on the show and you for tuning in. Please feel free to share your thoughts with us. We always welcome your feedback. Once again, I'm inviting you to visit NCFA website to check out some of the fantastic past episodes. We look forward to having you next Friday for another episode of FinTech Fridays. Have a great weekend. Thank you so much.

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End of Podcast

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