NCFA Canada | March 25, 2020

BIO: David Lucatch has spent more almost 35 years in the international marketing arena and over 25 years of that developing technologies and taking them to market.  David has held senior management posts and directorships at both private and public technology and media firms. David is an active supporter of numerous non-profit organizations and has been recognized and awarded internationally for his service and community support activities. In 1997, David developed the concept and led the initial eCommerce payment gateway team for the Canadian banking industry with support from VISA and MasterCard, Scotiabank and Citibank Canada.

In 2005, David created one of Canada’s first incubators, financing, creating and supporting projects globally in online AI / ML / NLP language technology, VoIP telephony, online mapping, music and entertainment, live performance, mobile marketing and eCommerce.

After leaving his posts at 2 public companies, in early 2017, David founded Pegasus Fintech. Pegasus is positioned to support founders, innovative technology developers and emerging companies in their efforts to preserve long-term ownership and promote growth opportunities through compliant business solutions.

In late 2017, David became a co-founder KABN to focus on the compliance and liquidity issues surrounding digital currencies.  By mid-2018, the Pegasus team also developed KABN’s identity platform KABN ID allowing users and commercial clients to verify, manage and monetize identity on a continuous, Always On global scale reducing the need to do identity verification for multiple transactions with a user.    In May 2019, David and 2 partners filed a US Patent for the invention of a process to use the Blockchain for Identity Attestations.

David’s focus today is set squarely on KABN and its mission to put ownership, control and profitability of identity back into the hands of individuals.  KABN’s products and programs covers over 180 countries worldwide and is expanding its regional leadership teams in 2019 and 2020.

David is a graduate from the University of Toronto and continues to serve as mentor to a variety of student programs and leadership initiatives globally. In 2010 David was a recipient of an Arbor Award from the University of Toronto, recognizing his continued activities and contributions to his alma mater and served a term as a member of the University’s Electoral College.  David served as an inaugural member of the Ontario Securities Commission SME Committee and is a member of the NCFA Advisory Board.

Some additional “fun facts”:

In addition to his technology accomplishments, David is also active in the media industry:

David and his team were instrumental in achieving a Guinness World Record in 2011 for the Most Nationalities in an Online Chat together with Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley of KISS;

In 2013, David and his team worked with Disney Animation to create a global, multi-language “flash event”’ for the worldwide online video premiere for the Academy Award and Grammy Award song Let It Go from the movie Frozen;

In 2017, David and his partners at created and produced Stars and Pinstripes, a New York Yankees television series featured on the YES Network and Direct TV and were nominated in 2017 for a NY Emmy Award in the Entertainment Program / Special category.

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Transcription of Interview

Intro: Welcome fintech Friday's a weekly podcast brought to you by the National Crowdfunding and Fintech Association of Canada and partners.Covering all things fintech block chain be AI and alternative finance.

Tristram: We have David Lucatch, co founder, director and president of KABN Network, North America as a special guest today. David, thanks for being here.

David: Thank you very much Tristram.

Tristram:  Let's start with a little bit about your background. Tell us tell us about your path, your current project.

David: Well, you know, I've been in the space since the early days of the internet and that several companies with new technology, one was the original - I like to think it was the original purveyor or designer of the commerce gateways for Canadian banking. So we, we were one of the first companies at that time to allow people to use credit cards online. So I did that. I've run incubators. I've run AI and machine learning and natural language processing, technology companies for language translation. So I've been around a few years but our new and latest one, it's not really new anymore - I would say it's a couple years old -  called cabin is focused in online identity. And we're in the business of verifying, managing and monetizing online identity.

Tristram: Okay, so can you tell me a bit more about about KABN? And I noticed you have a full suite of products. How does that fit together?

David: Oh, well, thank you. It's fairly simple. I mean, the first part of identity especially online identity, is verifying that you are who you say you are. It's really easy in the real world to verify yourself. If you walk through an airport, you'd have probably have two or three times where you'd have to show a passport or some kind of identification to get to the next stage. In the real world, that happens every day and or we see each other in most cases, face to face or we know each other. And that verification is done, one to one or one to few. But in the online world, anybody can say they're anybody in most cases. So what we've done is we've made it very simple for commercial companies to verify their constituents or their customers. And we've made it very easy for consumers to have a verified identity called a KABN ID that they can take with them when they go places online. And they can prove who they are. That's the first part of their business, KABN ID, that's the verification suite. We then take that private ID which is owned by you - we don't own it - and we help you manage on a on a pooled or aggregated basis, your data that makes you you what makes you a consumer, what do you like? What do you dislike? That, those pools of data can then be used to create customized offers that you want to see, and that people want to bring to you because you are part of a known identity pool. So at that point in time, we can help you verify, we can help you manage that data, and we help and we will manage it with you. And then we can help you create value from that data. So and in the value side or the monetization side, we have a number of products, including KABN KASH, which is our loyalty and engagement program. And we have our KABN financial services products, including the Pegasus Flyte debit card. In Canada, we have the ability to issue both a debit card and a mobile banking platform. And that kind of covers the suite of services we offer. And just to add to that, for a moment, we've introduced a new consumer product called Liquid Avatar, which I think we'll get into a little bit deeper as we go.

Tristram: Cool. Well, I'd like to take the opportunity to unpack each one of these services, which look really interesting to me. So on the ID side, as this is the foundation of your offering, is that correct?

David: That is correct.

Tristram: Now, what is the vision behind having ID as the core product are the foundation of your suite of products?

David: Well, that's a really good question. When you think about identification, in most cases, it's a single point in time. And, and there have traditionally been a number of companies, there's competitors in this space for identity verification, but each one of those competitors we call a pass or fail. They're they're not interested in supporting the consumer, in the long term. They're, they're really interested in supporting the commercial company, and telling you whether you pass or fail than identity verification. And they get paid, in most cases, either way. Our motivation was to look at the mousetrap and reinvent it. And we said, really, it's all about the consumer owning their identity. Because owning identity should be a basic human right. You should have control over that identity. So to do that, we created a service that once you're - it's called one and done or always on - where once we've identified or verified you, unless your documents change or there's a something that needs to be updated. We can verify you to a third party saying: Yes, I am who I say I am. I am David Lucatch. And I can prove that and KABN's going to verify that for me. So I don't have to hand third parties, unknown parties, any of my documentation that would water down the value of my identity.

Tristram: Okay, and so in terms of - this is based on on a blockchain is that correct?

David: Sorry?

Tristram: It's - the product is based on a blockchain as well. Is that correct?

David: Well, the product uses the blockchain you - it is, in fact not legal to put identity on the blockchain. So anybody who says or putting data on the blockchain is actually likely breaking privacy rules because the European privacy rules the Canadian privacy rules. Now the California rules. The rules basically say that consumer must have the ability to remove their data from a system and beyond removing any trace of that data has to be forgotten. If you put it on the blockchain because the blockchain is immutable, that's an impossibility. So what we've done is we've developed a system that uses the blockchain, only to hold what we would call a marker. And a marker to us is binary, you know, it's one or zero, on off true false, yes, no pass fail. We can put that marker on a blockchain registry. So when a registry that is connected to a database, a blockchain database, and we can say: You're not only verified, but that verification is connected to an online wallet, an online piece of data. It might be a field record for a hospital. Or it could be a educational record, that you are verified, you have passed verification. If anything ever changes, we can update or send a new marker that says you have failed. So when you think about it, for financial transactions, somebody who might be good today and passes everything in that moment in time, which is traditionally identity verification is done. And that's through a process called know your customer, or KYC, and anti money laundering check. We can keep that in compliance, or continuous. And make sure that, that you're not only good today, but you're good tomorrow and the day after, the day after that and so on. So it's a big change. We've really reinvented the process, in our opinion, of identity verification for digital use.

Tristram: So in other words, you really streamline the process for a basic, almost fundamental thing for everything we do in life.

David: Exactly. But the key here is, it's yours. It doesn't belong to a corporation, it doesn't belong to KABN, it's yours. And  that was a fundamental issue that we all know with Facebook and Cambridge Analytical was that people were using data. Well, you know, if large corporations in which they're going to have to down the road, adopt policies that keep the consumer protected and allow the consumer to have control over their data - which is where all the major legislation around the world is headed or been approved - then we're right in that sweet spot of compliance. So we've really created something that is getting. - we're getting a lot of attention on this because it's not only new and innovative, it doesn't reinvent the wheel in that respect. It's a process that people are used to. But behind the scenes, it has reinvented the wheel, because we changed all the control mechanisms to be consumer focused.

Tristram: That's great. Now, the one thing I notice - your site says something about using biometric ID. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

David: Sure. And without getting too long winded or complex, but you know, if you think about it, I don't know how many passwords you have to remember. And I get on the phone with people they go: Oh my gosh, I have to remember all these passwords. But the the really overarching situation, we'll use a phone today. inherent in our mobile phone is usually fingerprint identity or retina or face recognition. That is built into the phone, that's for that device. And I won't go into the security of the complexity of that device, but it's not good enough for the whole world. So, what we've done is we've said, you know, what, if I'm proving you, are you, why shouldn't I add biometrics to that? Why shouldn't I add, you know, right now we use facial recognition. We could use voiceprint, or fingerprint or other tools, that it's not part of your phone, but part of our ecosystem, that when someone wants to authenticate you, you don't have to use a password long term, all you do is answer with your face. Or answer with your voiceprint. And we're seeing this a little bit more in the banking sector than other sectors. But at the end of the day, you know, there's enough confidence in the software that does this, to say that you are you, we've proven that on an ID basis using government ID and supporting documentation. Why shouldn't we use your face to make sure  you can verify that as well. We go forward.

Tristram: That's great. Well, it's a modern - it seems like a really modern take on the whole thing. Making it much simpler for the consumer.

David: We believe so.

Tristram: Now I noticed in your literature, you're talking- your product talks about the concept of Whitelist Membership. Can you get into that a little bit and explain what that means?

David: Sure. Simply put that when you start with KABN or you're brought into KABN let's say, to a commercial application, because someone's needed to verify you - then you're on you're on a particular whitelist. You can think of it as the point of entry of membership. And so, commercial client, again, not to get confusing, but so David comes in, I joined you know, Tris' organization Tris has to verify me, so I'm done. Okay, now, David has his KABN ID and he goes to Bob's site who needs to verify me that uses KABN. I just have to sign in with, with my KABN ID, I don't have to re verify. But I'm now on Tris's whitelist, his corporate whitelist, and I'm on Bob's corporate whitelist. But my origination point was Tris. It's a way of keeping things straight for us, that if there is certain requirements or documentation flow, we know where the origin point is. So but you can be on many different whitelist you can be all over the place. There's no restriction at this point in time of where you can join, unless you don't meet the restriction of that particular whitelist. Like we're only allowing people on this particular whitelist from Canada. Or from Canada, United States. Or we're only allowing people based on certain other attributes to join a particular whitelist that  might, that might be inherent to that list, but your KABN ID is global.

Tristram: Okay, that's interesting. Now let's move on to the Pegasus Flyte Visa. What does the card offer? And how is it different from other cards on the market?

David: So, when we look at the new emerging space, we thought that there's, I mean, we all know there's multiple types of currency. And, you know, when we say digital currency, people have a tendency to get a little bit nervous. But when you think about digital currency that's been going on for years. If you use a credit card from any of the major banks, you're using somebody else's currency, you're not using your own and it's generally digitally generated. So digital currency has many different forms. Fiat is considered traditional dollars, but our program works with both. Our program is one of the first programs in North America that allows the use of both digital currency, in certain respects you have to transfer that digital currency out to Fiat, but digital currency activations and, fiat currency activation. So, it makes it very different. We also have our own loyalty programs that are connected to the card - and it isn't it is a debit card is not a credit card.

Tristram: Okay.

David: And we have our ability to add a number of feature sets on our mobile banking platform. So it allows companies who issue points, companies who issue other types of digital currencies, to engage with their consumers in a way, that's going to make it easier to spend those digital currencies in, the real world. Or online.

Tristram: Okay, so it's...

David: Sorry, go ahead.

Tristram: No, sorry. Finish what you're going to say.

David: So it's just a new way of thinking. Again, we're all about the innovation cycle. What's been done traditionally, and how can we make it sort of better, faster, cheaper.

Tristram: Okay, now, the question I had was, so when you're describing it, are people able to use this card, not just to convert from digital currencies to Fiat, but are they are they able to pay with a digital currency with the card at this point?

David: Well, I candidly, that's not within the purview yet of the network's being Visa or MasterCard. I truly believe it will be. But it's not necessarily a complete straight line yet there is a little bit of curves in there.

Tristram: Right.

David: But I believe that if you get in early enough as we are, you'll find the straight lines first. So for us, it was dipping our toes in the water getting this started. Knowing that there would be curves or bumps in the road. But allowing early adopters to get in and do something that they will be excited to have been part of at the early stage. I think if you think back to e-commerce that the early days, you know, or even using the internet, you know, it was a dial up modem. And I think we can all remember those, tones. But you know, today now what we take for granted we had to go through a little bit of pain to get here.

Tristram: And I certainly remember when Visa specifically came out and said they would guarantee every transaction that you did with the card on the internet - probably early somewhere in 2000. What a difference that made for consumers using the cards for actual purchases

David: Yes, that comes with a price because ultimately all those bad transactions are in our interest rates that we pay on our credit cards.

Tristram: Right...

David: So by using KABN's verification system for large purchases, we can negate some of those potential bad transactions down the road. But that's that's another facet of our business that we're not we're not quite there yet.

Tristram: Okay. And just for my information are you are stablecoins going to be part of the mix on the card associated with the card?

David: It will depend on the stablecoin and the approval by our banking partners. The answer is, it will depend on the individual composition of the coin. So the answer is I'd like to have as many different coins and tokens available through the system and through our partner system because they have to be converted before they come over to us. I'd like as many as possible, but, again, it'll be on a case by case basis outside of the top several.

Tristram: Okay. And so you have a partnership with Visa with the card. How did that come about?

David: Well, it's actually - we don't really say it's a partnership with Visa. It's a Visa branded product.

Tristram: Okay.

David: We actually, we have a partnership with a private Canadian bank, that is licensed issue Visa cards and we work with them. They - but we did have to be approved by Visa before this program moved forward. So and we're in the KABN Network, there are other regions around the world that do have that approval as well. KABN Networks Group in in the UK and Europe both have that approval as well.

Tristram: Go ahead.

David: And we're looking to do that in the US as well.

Tristram: Okay, so you're currently available in Canada, is that what you're saying?

David: Well, the Canadian- the Canadian company KABN Systems North America Inc, which is our North American Division, offers the card in Canada and will offer it in the US. As well are the other partners in the KABN Network in Europe and the UK are separate and apart.

Tristram: Okay, and for people that want some more information on how to get access to the Pegasus Flyte card in North America, where would they go to find out about that?

David: They go to KABN Systems, that's plural, kabnsystemsna.com  North America. So kabn systems na.com

Tristram: Okay, perfect. And so and you're also approved for a Europe in the UK as you were saying right?

David: Again, through other partners in our network,

Tristram: Okay, terrific. And moving on to the loyalty program that you have that's KABN KASH is it not?

David: Yes. And KABN KASH is a rebate program - a consumer rebate or cashback program that we're launching, probably early summer that will allow people in our network to be able to get great deals and receive cash back on some of those deals. You've seen other programs in the marketplace that have done that, and we're quite excited about that opportunity. And you -  we expect to see some significant name brands in there, where the consumer can buy something online and have money put on their card directly or their their Pegasus Flyte Visa card.

Tristram: Okay, and can you elaborate on the kinds of businesses that might be interested in using this platform?

David: I think we'll recognize the names but we can't disclose that yet. We haven't done...

Tristram: Okay. (Laughter) Now, so your target market it's millennials and Gen X is that right?

David: Millennial and Gen Zed, or for American friends, Gen Z. So it's the younger demographic. Late X, late boomers and Xs and then really primarily millennials and Gen Z(eds).

Tristram: Okay, and how important is, these type of loyalty programs to this target market?

David: Well, I I'd like to comment on something which might make sense to everybody is that we've actually introduced a consumer program called the Liquid Avatar. And that Liquid Avatar is a - we think the genesis of where everything will go. From a consumer standpoint, we all know what an emoji is. We use them every day, you know, send them constantly. But imagine if you will, that you can have your own avatar and that avatar is actually a passport. That image that you send everyone is passport. You can  actually transport a URL or public data when you send that image by text or email, or through other methodologies - sharing social media. You can - that has a URL or other information built into it, that holds public data - my links to my Facebook page, Tic Toc. Whatever I want to have on there is within that Avatar and it's referred URL. And then on the other side, and we call that a public hearing, and the avatar also has a private key. So it has the ability to, through authentication, be able to move private data that you have and hold, not held by KABN, but you have through access points. So we believe that  the Liquid Avatar, and its liquidavatar.com - we expect our graphic, a full graphic site to be up within two weeks. But that is a new introduction from KABN. And that will also allow you to participate in all kinds of loyalty and engagement programs. We're talking to groups that handle 1200 campus operations, or campus opportunities in North America. We're talking to one of the large music brands. We're talking to a lot of people who are very interested in connecting to consumers through this gateway of people having avatars. And I think that's the long term approach to that. And then we connect into a loyalty program that allows merchants and vendors to reach you on a permission basis. They don't get to reach you directly. They reach you through KABN, and you can build loyalty and value with the things that you like. And we think that is an ideal way to engage within an ecosystem, allowing people to receive what they want, when they want, and how they want. And share what they want, when they want, how they want, and to whom they want.

Tristram: That's cool. Now, would you say that this is kind of a community approach in terms of the avatars the way that you're setting it up?

David: The answer is, it is and isn't. I mean, it can be a, I like to - I'm a little bit older, so I like to think of Tinker toy or Meccano or even, you know, Lego that you - that you can connect groups of like and unlike individuals based on certain attributes. And I think it's all going to be data driven. I think we're all kind of getting a bit weary from some of the social networks that all they do is make money off everything that we have. I mean, rules have changed, of course, but there was a day when companies like Facebook can take any picture that you had on your Facebook page, and they could sell it commercially. People were showing up and seeing ads with their family vacation photos..

Tristram: Ya, ya.

David: ...not knowing how they got there. Well, we think, again, you know, data is the new, you know, is the new gold, the new titanium. And if you own it, and you can manage it, and you can keep it safe, and you only dispense it as you need that would be really cool. I want to add one other point to the Liquid Avatar. For young people, parents can actually control it, so you can add trustees. So there is control over the Liquid Avatar. Or unfortunately, you know, you might want to add a trustee to your Liquid Avatar because if something happens to you, they have the ability to control information. And we're also talking with liquid avatar about things like, you know, break the glass emergency component in there. If something tragically goes wrong with you, how does someone get that information that may be contained in in a quasi private manner - with emergency medical records? I mean, you think about it everywhere we go, our information doesn't necessarily follow us. It just doesn't. And I think it's time that we empower ourselves with our own data, to make it ours and transportable and to use that data to a - going to be a little bit overzealous here, but to almost force vendors to give us the deals that are best for us because we deserve them. And I think, and based on our data. So I think what we're doing is we're starting to empower individuals to have more control over their own activities, and their own use of data when they're online.

Tristram: Okay, and so to help me conceptualize how this product can be used by an individual, can you give me like an example, of, you know, a day in the life type of a thing where I can see all the ways that I can use this?

David: Sure. I'm going to stretch out a little bit into the future because not everything will be available day one. You get up in the morning and, you know, you go to a site and instead of login with a password, you flip your digital avatar and they send you back - excuse me, pardon me - they send you back an authentication. And that authentication allows you to answer with your face and get into a very private site. Watch your morning news, but It's all customized for you, because your morning news - this company believes there's a benefit to giving you news that is only particular to you, and you've authenticated. You know, you get on a street car or a bus or a subway, and you show your Liquid Avatar and it pays for you. It debits an account, whether it's a PRESTO Card or some other kind of card, and or debit your bank account. Because you've authenticated. It pings you and you answer with your face and you're done. You go to buy something at a sandwich shop, it does the same thing. You want to send a business contact or a new friend, you want to send them information about yourself, you can send them your Liquid Avatar and they can visit your public page to ensure that they've got your links to all your Facebook pages and all your social media and anything else that you're doing online. So there's many different ways - you sign into a game or you want to play a game, or you're a gamer for argument's sake, and all your game ranks are in your public profile. There's - it's boundless of what you can do. There is no, there's no - everywhere that you think that you have to authenticate, sign in,or give data or share data, a Liquid Avatar can provide that interface for you. And in a way that you want to control. So, you know, today I want to talk about a new achievement that I did, you know, my personal life and I can do that. I only want to share certain information at certain times. I will be able to control that as well.

Tristram: That's amazing. That is clearly a, you know, a futuristic view of how data and identity is going to be used.

David: Absolutely. And you know there's been a lot of great papers written about this kind of thought process for years. And I you know, if I had to give credit to one individual that was an absolute, sort of an enlightened individual in the in the space, it would have been a gentleman - it is a gentleman named David Birch, who wrote a great article called: Psychic ID, I think it was around 2009. And after we built our product, we actually looked at this article and - someone sent it to us, and it was amazing. David had predicted at the time that there would be some way of electronically verifying yourself without having to give your ID Because we've already verified you, why do you need to do it again, and again, and again? It only waters down the value of your documentation. And why should - why should somebody at the liquor store need to see your ID, they're only going to look at it. Now we can actually verify that you're over the age of majority of purchasers.

Tristram: Right and of course, all these different businesses all have snippets of information that are not necessarily the same between one business or another business.

David: Agreed or think about it - I'll give you a really interesting example. We know that unfortunately, people are now going to jail for this, you know, parents who thought they'd empower their children by getting them augmented SAT scores or entrance opportunities, or whatever the case may be. And the parents are going to go to jail. And, or you take an exam online, and unfortunately, given the current situation, you know, a lot of children will be learning online - how do you know someone who's taking a test online is actually that person?

Tristram: Right.

David: Right. Or that taking that entrance exam or that professional exam, or attending a conference or doing this or that. And then when you think about the opportunities to build loyalty points, I mean, how many different touch points do you have for loyalty? So if I had one Liquid Avatar that could collect all my loyalty points in one location, you know, kind of hallelujah!

Tristram: Simplifies everything.

David: Absolutely. And the thing is, this Liquid Avatar, so now someone's probably thinking: well, how do I secure that? It's going to be secured by an ER 721 or non other non fungible token on the blockchain. So only you can change it. And say: OK, well then maybe I have to store my pr... We're looking at a situation now, and it's certainly not done yet, where the private keys will go into cold storage and you'll be able to get them out of cold storage based on your biometrics. Again, it's about solving little problems and adding them all together to solve a big problem.

Tristram: Right. Okay, now and the paper that you mentioned, is that relatively easy to find online? Because what I'll do is I'll attach the link to...

David: I would hope so - i don't - it was a couple years ago, but it's - David Birch is around, he's a very learned fellow, and it's called Psychic ID. And it was a UK publication, and it's probably worth the read for anybody who's really interested.

Tristram: Okay, that's terrific. Now let's, move to the business side. I understand you guys have a have a listing coming up on the Canadian Securities Exchange, is that correct?

David: We have a proposed reverse merger or business combination. Yes, we're working on that subject to all necessary approvals as we all shall say.

Tristram: Okay, and you don't have a symbol at this time do you?

David: Ah, we have one reserved and it- we'd like to say it's four letters and it's probably very synonymous, very synonymous with their name. But we certainly can't give that out until it's publicized by the exchange.

Tristram: Okay, and do you have an  ETA on when that might be available for people?

David: Sorry, I apologize.

Tristram: Do you have a timeline when you think this is going to be ready to go?

David: Well, where we are right now is, you know, we filed our documentation with the exchange and, they're doing an excellent job of reviewing it. And our business combination partner has a an event on March 31 to approve the transaction. KABN shareholders have already approved it. So based on those two things, we're working diligently to try and get conditional approval as soon as possible.

Tristram: Perfect. Now, let's talk about the future. What is your vision of the future? And how are you positioning KABN for that future?

David: Before I do that, I should mention just by one, just for one second, I should mention the symbol of the company we're doing the business combination with, in case anyone's interested in finding out the information. We're, we're doing a combination on the CSE with a company called Torino Power Solutions, or T isn't Tom p as in Peter, ss, and Samuel. So if anybody wants to look Torino Power Solutions up on the exchange listings, or they want to look sedar.com they can find out more information about that.

Tristram: Okay, perfect. I'll make sure that there's appropriate links for all of that in the in the transcript.

David: Thank you.

Tristram: So vision of the future?

David: Well, you know, I think an introduction of the Liquid Avatar is a big piece of our future. And again, we've just introduced it this past week. So when I think about identity, my hope and goal is that we're empowering consumers to have more control over their own data. And that will come with a huge number of opportunities as we move forward. I'm already looking at the day, you know, if we've ever any of us have seen the movie Ready Player One, we you know, there is a lot of value in the development of a virtual world. I mean, years ago, there was second life. And so I think more and more people will spend more and more time interacting online and, congregating online. Given the current state of affairs in the world today, more and more people will spend time online - just this week, I think, was yesterdayish. where Amazon announced that they want to hire 100,000 people because more and more people will be doing things online. So, at the end of the day, our vision is to empower people to take control of their data, own their data and profit from the data. So I think we're on a great trajectory to meet the objectives of where the world is coming.

Tristram: Okay, and liquid is - Liquid Avatar is it's in the process of rolling out right now?

David: It'll roll out May June but we're doing two things just if anybody's interested. One, you can sign up for a waitlist at liquidavatar.com and you can be among the first to get the Liquid Avatar. And the second thing is we'll be launching in the next, probably two weeks, and affiliate program or those that have friends and followers can sign up to be a referral agent from us and actually earn rewards for helping us build the network.

Tristram: Cool. Well, I'll make sure those are in the notes as well. We'll have...

David: Thank you.

Tristram Waye: So before we go, David, if people want to connect with you and get more information on KABN's suite of products, where can they do that?

David: Well, I'm available on on LinkedIn, that's that's a great place to get to me. They can also reach me at david.lucatch@kabn.network  And I'm sure you can post that link if you'd like.

Tristram: Yeah, I'll make sure all of that stuff is up so it's easy for people to get to you.

David: And we welcome the conversations. We welcome, you know, opportunities for partnership. If anyone is in interested in the investment  in our proposed RTO. If anyone's got thoughts or interesting ideas, you know, we do our best to get back to everyone as quickly as possible.

Tristram: That's terrific. Is there anything else that we didn't talk about that you'd like to you'd like to add in?

David: I think we've covered everything, including the kitchen sink.

Tristram: (Laughter) Thanks. Thanks for your time today, David, great to chat. And if you just hold on I'll press stop and we'll chat.

David: Thank you Tristram.

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